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Noel

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Have to build an outside door shortly (as opposed to an exterior door, it's for a bloke's backyard exit to the communal lane) and frame.
It'll be what I call a sheeted door although some call it a filled frame door and no doubt other names for it too.

Anyway, sheeted with 12mm T & G Vee each side and usual M & T construction, 44mm thick rails and styles rebated all round to accept the T & G, all in Redwood.

Similar to this but without the windies:



What I was wondering was about the construction at the bottom of the door. I've seen some with a breadboard finish and some with the same M & T as the top rail. Any preferences/advantages to either? expect the M & T but would be interested in opinions before I start.
Bottom of door will not be in contact with concrete etc, just a gap to let the rain water escape.
 

CHJ

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Personally if it is fully exposed to the elements I would prefer the T&G to go right down to the base with the bottom rail as a backing rather than the T&G sitting on a rebate, better drainage.
 

Noel

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But a metre or so of end grain exposed and possible damage if the hinges start sagging etc?
Although it will have several coats of decent paint on it.
 

tomatwark

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Hi Noel

I agree with Chas the T+G should go down to the floor so the V's shed water.

I would only board it on one side as well as if one side gets more water that the other, the boards one side will move differently to the other and cause the door to warp.

Tom
 

tomatwark

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Noel":24bzd37j said:
But a metre or so of end grain exposed and possible damage if the hinges start sagging?
If the hinges start sagging you are in trouble anyway, so don't worry about it.

Make sure the bottom of the door is well sealed, as this will help if from drawing water up and making the door swell.

Tom
 

Digit

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I'm with Chas, your argument about exposed end grain doesn't hold water Noel, or rather it does just that, the water gets into the bottom rail and is soaked up by the T and G end grain.
I live in a timber house, it's all about allowing water to get away and not pool anywhere. If sagging is a worry, brace it.

Roy.
 

tomatwark

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Also make sure you do not make the boards a tight fit as they will swell or in the case of a door an apprentice I used employ made, broke the tenons on the bottom rail.

Tom
 

CHJ

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Noel, I'm not suggesting that there is no bottom rail, just that it is slimmer and offset so that the T&G can go all the way down.
If not then the bottom rail rebate needs a decent full depth chamfer to encorage water drainage.
 

Noel

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Thanks for the comments.

Can't agree about the sheeting running to the very bottom, has to be a bottom rail of some sort, breadboard or standard M & T for me. I was just wondering about general opinion on the two variations. With the level of paint finish there won't (shouldn't be :) ) be any ingress of moisture into the bottom rail.
It also will be sheeted both sides, more weather proof and secure IMHO.
 

jasonB

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I'd also run the boards to the bottom, just a standard framed,ledger and braced door really. The gap between ground and end grain will dry quicker than water sitting on the top of the bottom rail and wicking up the end grain.

J

Noel, there is a bottom rail, set it about 4-6" up and make it 32mm thick so the boards fix against it, bare faced tennon on the board side.
 

Bradshaw Joinery

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if you have a 44mm stile and are boarding both sides with 12mm boards, then your left with a 20mm thick bottom and middle rails, be very carefull glueing up as you will have very little shoulder to clamp aginst even if using a 12mm mortice.

remember to paint the board grooves while assembling so they still slip together, and have a 2-2.5mm gap at every point or intersection.

when you machine the top rail, if the stiles are 110 finish, make the top rail 130mm then (so it looks the same size as stiles) rebate it 20mm both sides, the thickness of the boards, then groove out a futher 10mm, so you can tongue the ends of the boards to sit in the groove to hold the boards down, and can pin into the timber behind the rebate to hold the boards in position.
 

Noel

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Bradshaw Joinery":t70rku4w said:
if you have a 44mm stile and are boarding both sides with 12mm boards, then your left with a 20mm thick bottom and middle rails, be very carefull glueing up as you will have very little shoulder to clamp aginst even if using a 12mm mortice.

remember to paint the board grooves while assembling so they still slip together, and have a 2-2.5mm gap at every point or intersection.

when you machine the top rail, if the stiles are 110 finish, make the top rail 130mm then (so it looks the same size as stiles) rebate it 20mm both sides, the thickness of the boards, then groove out a futher 10mm, so you can tongue the ends of the boards to sit in the groove to hold the boards down, and can pin into the timber behind the rebate to hold the boards in position.
Getting there :)

Thanks BJ, that's mostly how I would build such a door BUT, as per picture, bottom rail will be per normal. As you mention lock/middle rail will be the skinny one.

Perhaps it's a culture thing but around these parts nobody runs the sheeting down to the bottom and we're not the driest part of the world.

So, back to my original question, breadboard bottom end versus M & T bottom rail?
 

Bradshaw Joinery

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I would run th boards right down, they can be replaced then, leving the door looking like new again, i tend to use the full bottom rail on front door type applications/ covered areas/open in doors. Used in more critical locations, as the thicker rail prevends the stiles distorting more.
If your using a full bottom rail in a exposed environment, i would leave a gap between board bottoms and rail so as said water cant pool and wick up the board end grain. Softwood really needs treating as it does seem to rot very easily now
 

Benchwayze

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There might be local regulations concerning doors opening into a communal area or right-of-way.
In any case inward opening doors can be better secured, and are not so easily jemmied anyhow. ( Here speaketh the voice of experience! 8) )

HTH

:D
 

Jacob

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jasonB":3fnutgia said:
I'd also run the boards to the bottom, just a standard framed,ledger and braced door really. The gap between ground and end grain will dry quicker than water sitting on the top of the bottom rail and wicking up the end grain.

J

Noel, there is a bottom rail, set it about 4-6" up and make it 32mm thick so the boards fix against it, bare faced tennon on the board side.
Agree except why framed? Ledged braced and battened. Weathers better on both sides compared to a framed door. Tops of ledges/braces to be bevelled and undersides with drip grooves. Very quick just nailed together in the trad way.
If not then boards to the bottom. Can't say I've ever seen anything like the "breadboard" detail on a door.
 

Benchwayze

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The traditional way is fine Jacob. Until the recipient doesn't know that clenched nails are traditional. One experience I had was..
'Ch***t! It looks a mess.' :roll:
 

Noel

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Jacob":2d9pj6g2 said:
jasonB":2d9pj6g2 said:
I'd also run the boards to the bottom, just a standard framed,ledger and braced door really. The gap between ground and end grain will dry quicker than water sitting on the top of the bottom rail and wicking up the end grain.

J

Noel, there is a bottom rail, set it about 4-6" up and make it 32mm thick so the boards fix against it, bare faced tennon on the board side.
Agree except why framed? Ledged braced and battened. Weathers better on both sides compared to a framed door. Tops of ledges/braces to be bevelled and undersides with drip grooves. Very quick just nailed together in the trad way.
If not then boards to the bottom. Can't say I've ever seen anything like the "breadboard" detail on a door.

I'll go and find one and take a picture.
 

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