Does the method make a difference???

[Michelle_K]

Hi all I am in need of some advise. I am very new to woodworking. I have been doing it for about eight months now. I absolutely love it and spend every spare waking moment learning as much as I can. I have no workshop nor do I have many tools. I currently work on a small coffee table.
Anyway, due to a zero budget all of my tools are second hand market jobs. I have become quite good at derusting which I always have to do (though I have yet to try corrodip which I have heard is amazing, but pricey for a bottle). I have three planes a Number three Stanley, and a number five and seven record. I have restored them but the blades were all very pitted and despite months of trying there is just no way I will ever get the pit marks out and a nice polish on the back. So I make do. And whilst I get a nice polish on the bevel and get it sharp ( I use wet and dry sandpaper. I am hoping to get some diamond stones or shapton glass stones in the very distant future but until then it's wet and dry all the way!) anyway I have been saving up for several months and I wanted to get a new handplane. I I really wanted a veritas handplane. A lie Nielsen would be a dream but I would need to get a lot better before I could justify that! Anyway after some research I concluded that the veritas planes are far to expensive. So then I had the idea to just replace the plane blades. And after hours of research and reading reviews I have decided that I would like to try a Ron Hock blade. I have only found a few places in the UK that sell the blades and it seems that the blade and a cap iron would end up being around £60 per blade which I just cannot afford so I think I will just get one for my number 5. I do use the number 7 a lot as I work with largish boards so it is nice having a plane that covers larger spaces but I just cannot afford a blade and cap iron for both which is a shame. I just want to experience tools in good condition that are not all rusty and mashed up but I get we all start somewhere right!
Anyway the advice...
Does the method in which one sharpens make a difference in the quality of edge you get. I mean would I get a sharper edge using a diamond or shapton stone? I find that whilst I get my tools sharp, they don't stay sharp for very long and then I am back to the sandpaper every five minutes and it's annoying. I don't have a nice set up just bits of cut up wet and dry and a piece of glass. I initially tried using pound shop sandpaper which didn't last and didn't really give great results so now I try to use better quality paper which isn't really working out as cheap as I thought it was but its still cheaper at the moment then diamond or shapton stones. But would it make a difference? Would the edge last longer or be sharper? I did try the scary sharp but the sheets didn't last as long as I had hoped and a sheet of the film is a lot more then a sheet of sandpaper. I know waterstones can be slightly cheaper and I tried one out once but I didn't get on with them.
Anyway sorry for the essay! The question... does the sharpening method make a difference?
Also has anyone used a Ron hock blade and are they as amazing as I have heard they are?
PS I really need a block plane with an adjustable mouth. Sadly
After nearly a year of searching at boot fairs and markets I have not come across a single one. So I need to just but one but it has to be cheap but ok if that is even possible. The cheapest I have seen is at wilkinson. I don't suppose anyone has used a wilko block plane have they.
I love woodworking but I just wish it wasn't so expensive!!!

Thanks everyone

 

[Phil Pascoe]

Sharpening is a hornet's nest I won't stir up, but one comment - the condition of the back/face call it what you will of a plane iron doesn't matter a jot as long as the little bit that's actually sharpened - the first few mm - is clean and unpitted. All well and good if it's clean and flat all the way up, but it serves no real purpose.

 

[Adam9453]

If you don't have a honing guide then I'd probably invest in one of those so you can get the angle correct, you might find that helps the edge last longer. Also leather strops are not expensive and could help keep the edge sharp between full sharpening sessions

 

[Ttrees]

You mentioned that you have used a waterstone ....
Do you own it ? if so what grit ...guessing that its fine enough stone to get you somewhere ..
Flatten your stone with the wet'n'dry on float glass .
Are you digging into the stone ? why do you not get on with em ?
I would suggest buying a eclipse style honing guide for like ... a fiver
and pulling the iron back instead of back and forward .

Loose particles of sandpaper grit will make a serrated edge on your iron .
A serrated edge will blunt quickly (you would need a microscope to see that the edge looks like a dovetail saw )
the serrated edge blunts quicker because theirs no support to reinforce what should be a full consistent edge .
If you dont like seeing rust dont buy an expensive plane
I dont have the luxury of having a dry shop so I covered them in leather pouches and holsters ..which i then liberally poured oil of various types in ..3 in 1 then virgin olive and now Ive moved on to synthetic 5w30 because the other ones
didn't work all that well and the motor oil is cheaper
Some leather is chemically treated and corrosive so watch out !
the most foolproof way would be plastic bag of oil tightly wrapped (yuck)

Ive since re-purposed two pub beer fridges to try and combat humidity issues
spent a long while gutting ,panel beating and re-Insulating them
Dont know if it'ill work but they are nice and safe from everything else at least .
I bought mobil 1 5w30 oil but i guess that any brand will be similar ,but prob a third of the cost !
Dont know how good it is for ya,,,,, but it smells less than 3 in 1 .
(which might not be such a good idea)
Give us a piccy of the back of your iron ..has it seen a flat waterstone ?
Good luck Michelle
Tomas

 

[adidat]

give me a few days and i will dig you out a Stanley block plane, will need a bit of love to get it working again, but its yours for free, can post or could drop off, im always around dulwich, brockley and east london etc

adidat

 

[Michelle_K]

Hi thanks for all of your replies. Insinuate a honing guide and i get a consistent edge. I use a 30 degree single bevel angle. I didn't know that wet and dry couldndonthat to your blade. Wet and dry is all I have ever use so that is interesting. I found with the waterstone that initially when I used it nothing seemed to be happening. When I watch other use them after a few seconds their stone is black with the steel being removed but mine never seemed to remove much steel and after a long while I have up on it. I was using a 1000 grit stone. I was going to buy an 8000 grit stone I had seen for £13.99 obviously not as good as the 8000 grit stone that is £60 in the green box but i thought I could finish up on that after the wet and dry but now you have told me wet and dry is not great for sharpening I am stumped. The stone was flat and that was another thing I found quite frustrating the flattening every five minutes. I did flattening it on glass and wet and dry drawing pencil lines on it and everything but it was always the same so I was never sure it was truly flat. I know you can get a flattening stone which is like £40 maybe that would have been better!
Now i am going to thing about how to go about sharpening next. There are those cheap diamond stones which are in three different colours. I know they are not the best but they could do the job. As far as I know the grits are not very high though. But well worth a try I think. Got to be better then sandpaper!

 

[PAC1]

Whilst you are learning, I would not buy expensive waterstones or diamond plates. I was going to say get a good India oil stone but then I saw this http://www.axminster.co.uk/marples-irwi ... set-135088 That will serve you well. As you improve and the budget allows move to a better India oilstone or think about other options.
An oilstone will get your tools sharp enough and they are largely maintenance free.
Do not fret about getting every last pit out of the back of an iron as long as the edge is clear and flat. Enjoy your woodworking.

 

[Ttrees]

Those cheap diamond stones with the plastic coloured bases are not suitable for touching the back of an iron with !
I first bought a decent diamond 1800g dia-sharp stone from stu-mac for about 30 quid (they dont sell 1800g anymore)
It serves me well after flattening loads of backs with it and wont smash like waterstones if it gets dropped .
Bound to happen if your starting out unless you've got space to make a sharpening station .

What brand of 1000 g stone do you have ?
Unless you go the Japanese route you should have 3 bevels on your planes and chisels .
For arguments sake say you've gotten the back to a fine polish with a 6000 or better .
The back does NOT get touched with anything but your finest stone and you leave it alone. . .
Now say you've got a dull edge /nicked edge
A primary bevel could be achieved with sandpaper at 23 degrees .
then a secondary bevel at 33 degrees
and finally a tertiary bevel at 35 degrees .
Good Luck

 

[Fitzroy]

Don't get suckered into the new tool route, lack of technique and/or understanding and you'll be pissed off at the money spent for limited "percieved" benefit. Go watch the Paul Seller's series on youtube about renovating an old plane. There is much more to plane effectiveness than jut a sharp blade! I got super focussed on sharpness at the start of my woodworking, and whilst it is important there are other things to learn before it is the most important element of your plane. My thoughts would be:
- Finish the blade with a easier profile (ie slightly convex leading edge or well rounded off shoulders)
- Get the blade 400 grit sharp then sort out the plane set up ie base, frog, mouth, cap iron etc (watch the Paul Sellers vids)
- Practice and get used to the plane, understand wood and how it impacts plane operation, plane with/against/across the grain, plane hardwood vs softwood, straight grain vs knots.
- Start to work on taking a better shaving, finish the blade edge straighter and wider, work on taking a wider and thinner shaving
- Now you need seriously sharp irons to take wider, thinner and more consistent shavings.
- You may now find you reach the limits of the abilities of your current tool, rather than your current technique, and a veritas/lee vally etc is a worthwhile spend.

Just my tupence worth. Fitz

PS, I have also found that a bench grinder is priceless for quickly getting old plane irons into reasonable shape prior to going to the wet and dry or sharpening stones.

 

[Graham Orm]

Cut a strip off one of these http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/12-Pocket-Lea ... SwLVZVq~g4
Then glue it to a scrap of wood and load it with this http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/BARBER-STROP- ... Sw~bFWNS9G (not too much just enough so you can see it. You still want to be able to see the fibres of the leather).

You can even just use the paste on a piece of MDF. Use it on your blade after sharpening to give a chrome like finish which will give you another 10% sharpness in my opinion.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

"Unless you go the Japanese route you should have 3 bevels on your planes and chisels ."
I must have been missing something all these years ... :?

 

[Graham Orm]

Try electrolysis for de-rusting, it's cheap and fun....and it works like magic. You Tube it.

 

[Jacob]

.... I currently work on a small coffee table.

You need a bench A stop-gap could be a board on top of your coffee table but big enough to jam one end against the wall to stabilise it for planing.

.... I have three planes a Number three Stanley, and a number five and seven record. I have restored them but the blades were all very pitted and despite months of trying there is just no way I will ever get the pit marks out and a nice polish on the back.

That's all the planes you really need for almost everything. You only need to keep the end 3mm or so nice and shiny - if necessary lift it a bit and make a very shallow bevel on the face. Or just ignore the pits they'll get polished off with use

.....I am hoping to get some diamond stones or shapton glass stones in the very distant future but until then it's wet and dry all the way!)

Cheapest and best is an oil stone. I think everybody should be up to speed with this bit of traditional kit, as a fall back if nothing else.

anyway I have been saving up for several months and I wanted to get a new handplane. I I really wanted a veritas handplane.

You don't need one - buy some wood instead

..I have decided that I would like to try a Ron Hock blade.

If you must replace a blade the cheapest way to do it is to buy another old plane. There's nothing wrong with the old blades and they are easy to sharpen. Buy some wood instead

.....
Anyway the advice...
Does the method in which one sharpens make a difference in the quality of edge you get.

Oil stone is easiest, quickest and good enough for almost everything. I'd master the oil stone first before bothering with any of the current (expensive) sharpening fashions

....
Also has anyone used a Ron hock blade and are they as amazing as I have heard they are?

Yes - and no they are not amazing

PS I really need a block plane with an adjustable mouth.

Why? A Stanley 220 will do everything you need. Adjustable mouths are just a dubious extra selling point.

....
I love woodworking but I just wish it wasn't so expensive!!!

Don't waste money on fancy kit then! Don't forget to buy some wood!

 

[Graham Orm]

I agree with Jacob on most of the above, however the adjustable mouth on my block plane definitely makes a difference to how the plane works.

Buy old stuff, learn how it works and how to fettle it. A new plane regardless of where it's from will need fettling sooner or later (if not as soon as you get it, David Charlesworth commented that all new planes are kits that need work before they will perform), and you'll be scared to touch it because it cost so much.

There I did it, and there was no thunder and lightning.....I mentioned DC and Jacob in the same post.

 

[Michelle_K]

Good wood! That is a whole other problem! I spend far to much time these days searching for nice wood for guitar and ukulele back and sides!!! It's becoming a serious obsession,lol!

Thank you for all of your advice.

 

[MIGNAL]

Yes, forget the new plane and the replacement blades. I've been down that track. They are nice to own (fine if you have loads a dosh!) but they are not necessary. I use Stanley/Records and old wooden planes and I make stuff that sells in the £££thousands (well OK two or three).
Don't forget a leather strop, just any junk hardish piece of thick leather will do. Just drop the angle by a few degrees to prevent rounding over the edge. I think you missed the bargain Ebay Trend diamond stones. That would have worked out far cheaper than wet/dry in the long run. You only really need two grits, a coarse and a fine. The middle grits aren't really necessary. I used to sharpen on a hand crank (100 G) and a 8,000 Japanese waterstone, nothing between.
I have some Spruce soundboards you can have. A bit of runout, not nice when hand planing but you see runout on some VERY expensive instruments. I have Walnut Back/Sides but I paid decent money for those. I also have a few thin ebony fretboards that I'm selling on because I'm starting to react to ebony dust.

 

[dexter]

I'm with Jacob on this, the price that you are thinking of paying for one blade could get you a decent oil stone and more.
When I started my apprenticeship 43 years ago no one had heard of these "bespoke" brands, it was Stanley or Record planes that serviced the building industry. Joiners would often use, sharpen and resharpen plane blades, (and chisels come to that) until there was practically no blade left. Practice with what you've got at the moment.

Dex

 

[Jacob]

And if it's ukeleles buy wood from an instrument makers supplies. It seems very expensive but it cuts out a vast amount of work and wastage, and you know you have the right stuff for the job. If you can track down usable stuff cheaper, regard that as a bonus

 

[Kalimna]

Echo what Jacob has said above. If you don't have access to a bandsaw at the very least, then don't consider sourcing your own luthiery wood. You will pay what seems like a bit more than you want to, but a lot of work will have been invested by the supplier learning what to look for in instrument wood and applying that experience to sifting through stock.
There are several excellent UK based suppliers who are not difficult to find, online at least.

Cheers,
Adam

 

[shed9]

Not related to your original question, but may be worth checking out your local colleges for any adult woodworking courses. Most colleges will be well kitted out and apart from the ability to learn, you can probably get access to the machinery out of class hours.