Different steels

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griggs

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I've tried a seRch but didn't get any results, so could be that I didn't use the right terminology so apologies if this has been done to death.

In relation to planes and chisels, what are the advantages and disadvantages of the various steels that seem to be on offer in relation to ease of sharpening / edge retention etc ?

Thanks
 
griggs":1rruwprs said:
CStanford":1rruwprs said:
Oy vey...

Sorry, hopefully people can play nice as I'm genuinely interested.

You can get lost in the weeds for a while if you let the online community convince you that it makes a difference what steels you use. It doesn't, that's pretty much it.

Try a couple, see what you like. If you already have a sharpening setup, set your steels up in terms of what it likes. If you have a sharpening setup that takes you a long time to go through, focus on getting that sped up first and then once you find a method that is swift, decide around that.
 
Griggs I've grown to be be most fond of simple steels, 01 is as complicated as I'd personally go right now. Old cast steel, 01 and to some extent chrome vanadium. They hold and edge at low angles and don't seem to chip.

There is some info here http://bladetest.infillplane.com/index.html but don't treat that as the only way to figure out what's good. The speed at which you can go from blunt to sharp is also very important.

It's natural to be curious and want to share experiences but these are also very subjective. Even when presented in honest and well presented tests I'd still be very wary. The same two people can try the same steels and have very different opinions on them. Keep it simple :)
 
G S Haydon":3vx667x7 said:
Griggs I've grown to be be most fond of simple steels, 01 is as complicated as I'd personally go right now. Old cast steel, 01 and to some extent chrome vanadium. They hold and edge at low angles and don't seem to chip.

I suspect you might want to include W1 in that too; many of the old (pre 1900) plane blade were made of that.

IIRC the QS blades are closer to W1 than O1.

BugBear
 
Agreed bugbear, old cast steel is a water quench, a skilled process! Just look at the craft required to make an ol' iron. QS are indeed a water quench iron, the Chinese seemed to get that right, it's a nice steel too!
 

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Back in the 19th century, there were basically two grades of steel used for edge tools, 'cementation steel' (aka 'shear steel') and 'cast steel', The first was made by taking wrought iron bars (in other words, very nearly pure iron) and packing them in containers with charcoal, then heating them at something like 1000 centigrade for about a week. This caused the carbon in the charcoal to combine with the iron to produce something called 'blister steel', which was then cooled, broken into pieces, piled into bundles and forge-welded into 'shear steel' under a tilt hammer. The result was what we would now call 'carbon steel' - iron with about 1% of carbon in it, which has the capacity to be forged into useful shapes like sheep-shear blades and then hardened and tempered to the point that it'll take a good cutting edge and hold it. The problem was that the distribution of carbon was not very even, which made the tools a bit variable. This problem was solved in 1740 by a clockmaker, Benjamin Huntsman, who wanted a more consistent steel for his clock springs; he took the blister steel, broke it into small pieces, and melted it in a small pot known as a crucible. The resulting molten steel was cast into small ingots, which could then be subsequently forged and heat treated just like shear steel, but with more consistent results. It became known as 'crucible steel' or 'cast steel' - the latter term often being stamped onto edge tools made of it. There are still a lot of vintage tools about (especially those made before about 1900) made of this steel, it's easily sharpened to a very fine edge (some people say it takes the sharpest edge of any toolmaking steel), and holds it reasonably well in most woodworking circumstances.

As technology advanced, people started to experiment with metallurgy, and the next useful edge-tool steel which cane to be widely used was what we now call 'O1'; it started to become common around 1900. It sharpens easily, takes an edge that some feel is not quite as good as 'straight' carbon 'cast steel', but more than good enough for most circumstances, and holds it well enough for most people. In the 20th century, a couple of other steel grades came to be used; for all intents and purposes, they are about the equal of O1. You sometimes see old tools marked with such designations as 'Tungsten Vanadium' and 'Chrome Vanadium' - these are matallurgically meaningless terms (O1 contains all three elements in small proportions), and are just marketing really. The tools are in all probability perfectly sound, though.

Very late in the 20th century, a specialist hand-plane maker called Karl Holtey started experimenting with available tool steels. (I should perhaps mention that there are now literally thousands of grades of 'steel', of which several hundred are 'tool steels'. Not all are suitable for making edge tools, though.) He was looking for a blade steel thar suited his planes, which were aimed at the specialist woodworkers who worked very demanding, hard, abrasive timbers. His first commercial release was a steel designated A2, which has been enthusiastically taken up by several manufacturers. It has the reputation of holding it's edge longer than cast steel or O1, but being a bit more difficult to sharpen, and being prone to chip at the edge unless bevel angles are kept a bit higher than is normal with cast steel and O1. It is also said not to take such a shap edge as O1. Later, Holtey used a powder metallurgy steel called S53, which takes an even longer-lasting edge, but needs diamond stones to sharpen it - this one has not seen such universal use.

Another steel that has crept into specialist usage fairly recently is D2, which has the reputation for holding an edge better than most edge-tool steels. It is however, harder to sharpen, responding only to diamond and ceramic stones.

Lee Valley (Veritas) in Canada have within the last couple of years released a powder metallurgy steel they designate 'PMV-11', which some people report sharpens as easily as O1, but has much better edge holding characteristics. (Others have been less positive, so the jury remains 'a bit out' so far. Time will tell as people get used to it.)

Something that has started to become more common is the cryogenic treatment of steels during hardening and tempering. Some people have reported quite positive benefits - prolonged edge life, with no detriment to sharpening ability. Whether this becomes common or remains a specialist niche remains to be seen.

There probably isn't too much point in worrying about the 'fancy' steels unless you do a lot of work in very hard, abrasive timbers. The irons supplied in most decent planes, and the blades on decent edge tools new or vintage will answer perfectly well in about 95% of circumstances, and will respond to just about any commonly available sharpening medium.

That - without getting into the complexities of steel metallurgy - is probably far more than most woodworkers really need to know. The best bet is just to get used to the foibles of the tools you happen to own, and keep them happy in their work. Ninety-nine times out of a hundred, that approach will 'get you there'.
 
Thank you all for your replies, especially Chesirechappie for taking the time to write that up.

Part of the driving force behind the Q was due to certain planes where you have to select which grade of steel you want the iron in as part of the shopping process, eg HCS or A2 or PMV etc. I now have a better understanding of what I'm looking at and seems at my level I needn't worry overly much at obtaining blades made from higher grade steels.

Thanks again
 
There is something worth noting (and this is of no advantage for the OP), and that is that most of the steels mentioned above are not blade steels. O1 and others, included, are diemaking steels. The idea of making steel intended for blades pretty much stopped at water hardening steel.

the fascination with diemaking steels has two roots -
* one in using what's available. Swedes and Japanese still make very plain carbon steel, but W1 is fairly uncommon.
* two, in making something that will appeal to amatuers with the promise of some fantastic qualities

The other thing in play here is the ease of hardening steel. Lie Nielsen at least at one point was not able to harden more than a portion of their W1 irons, probably due to warpage and cracking. A person I know well called them and asked if they'd use A2, as he was curious as to why some of the people he was supplying with tools were coming up with soft irons before they were worn out. They declined to discuss it (perhaps they were already going to A2).

They also have a lot of beginner users who find it a real chore to sharpen. So do all tool companies now. I don't envy anyone marketing tools now.

Also, V11 sharpens like A2, and behaves like a finer A2 or a harder version of most 440C knife steels. I suspect that the truth in the end is that it's a little better than A2 overall due to its fineness, but the wear resistance being much better than A2 is something I haven't seen. It has a tenacious wire edge if you use natural stones on it (and you can, just as you can use natural stones on A2).

It's the case, though, that most steel that has been put in place after oil hardening steel is a matter of using something that was designed for other use. The hitachi blade steels are an exception, but we won't see them in western tools - they're probably all water hardening steels.

The difference between all of these steels is more easily noticed if you use a straight razor (water hardening, early period tungsten added steel and O1 types are what you'll find there, though - no A2 and certainly no D2, as D2 is unsuitable for fine edge work that a razor requires).

I have some pity for those just coming into the hobby with the nonsense printed on the blogs and elsewhere, insinuating that modern stuff is an improvement in anything other than uniformity. Same thing goes for sharpening stones, where bloggers have gone full circle, first criticizing oilstones, and now extolling their virtues.
 
I wouldn't worry about the steel type too much when you're starting out. You can refine your preferences with experience. Most of my plane blades are A2, my chisels are either 01 or A2 and one PM-V11 which I don't care for. I have some antique chisels of which I have no idea about the steel in them but they work superbly.

I also don't know about the steel in my gouges or various knives, or my axes. It's not something that preoccupies me- I just sharpen it till it's ready for use and get on with woodworking. In most tools the steel type is less important than other factors.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
One form of the less-than-helpful type pf replies is to state "I don't care for XYZ", and not state a reason or back it up with any evidence. Purely subjective opinion is widespread on the woodworking forums, and this is the source of so much misinformation.

I think that there are few generalisations that we may all agree on:

1. The various tools steels (whether they were designed for die making or blades) do differ in a range of qualities, such as toughness, abrasion resistance, impact resistance, and grain size. This affects how sharp the steel gets, and how long the edge can hold this under different conditions.
2. A consequence of this is that steel for chisels functions differently to steel for plane blades.
3. A complication of this is that edges sharpen better or worse owing to the experience and ability of the user.
4. And ditto according to the manner in which the blade is used (e.g. chopping vs paring)
5. Not all steels work equally on the same sharping media, which means that one must match the steel you choose with the sharpening media that suits them best (e.g. oil stones vs water stones vs ceramic stones vs diamond stones .... and within these there are variations)
6. Not all wood (and tools) require the most durable steel and, indeed, it is always going to be a trade off betweem the edge-holding of the steel and the properties of the wood, and both being the level of compromise accepted by the User.
7. Ultimately, it is the last factor that is most important - what compromises we accept. Having said the difficulty/ease in sharpening steels is leveled by using the appropriate sharpening media. Someone who comes along and says that XYz does not take or hold an edge may simply not be sharpening it correctly in the first place. And some may not wish to provide the appropriate media if they see this as an unnecessary extra cost.

None of this states which steel to choose. This experiment and report may help a little to understand the postential of some of the steels : http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ToolReview ... pared.html

Regards from Perth

Derek
 
Very interesting article on the chisels link from Derek. I am very interested in different steels for kitchen knife making, and this is argued about on chef forums at length. Blade feel, ease of sharpening, longevity etc. Many of us favour Japanese steels: Blue 1 and 2 or White 1 and 2 (for fine knives). However, using a chisel to chop through hardwood is a whole different ball game to fine slicing (although you can be using a knife all day long) and it has given me a different perspective on steels.
 
Cheshirechappie":2boa9hmg said:
This caused the carbon in the charcoal to combine with the iron to produce something called 'blister steel', which was then cooled, broken into pieces, piled into bundles and forge-welded into 'shear steel' under a tilt hammer. The result was what we would now call 'carbon steel' - iron with about 1% of carbon in it, which has the capacity to be forged into useful shapes like sheep-shear blades and then hardened and tempered to the point that it'll take a good cutting edge and hold it. The problem was that the distribution of carbon was not very even, which made the tools a bit variable.

I can add a little to that, although it's really an aside. Later on, the very lack of uniformity that razor, chisel and plane makers deplore was recognised as a very desirable feature in butcher's knives. The (by now carefully managed) non-uniformity, when sharpened with a butcher's steel, became micro serrations, which excel at cutting meat.

Hence, long after Huntsman and his crucible, "shear steel", and "double-shear steel" were marks seen and sought after on butchers knives, certainly into the 1930's.

BugBear
 
I'm not sure Derek. Reflecting on what I've seen on the forums over the last few years even the "evidence" is subjective. I personally look towards people who make things, their shop and the timber they use. You're a great example. I enjoy your methodical approach, the wood you use is often very hard and abrasive and you use machines for much of the heavy lifting. Me on the other hand, I'm a bit more seat of the pants :).

David Savage has been writing again on his preference. http://blog.lostartpress.com/2015/10/04/on-chisels/ . I like the fact it's experienced feedback from someone who makes things. Not gospel of course but well worth a review for those about to jump into making a purchase.
 
Not sure, Graham? All I can offer is the evidence of tests that I have attempted to perform as objectively as possible.

Here is a comparison of steels types in chisels:

ChiselBladeTesting-5Steels_html_415fd1dc.jpg


5 steels when chopping: http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ToolReview ... teels.html

6 steels when paring: http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ToolReview ... aring.html

That lot should cure any insomnia! :shock:

To emphasise, it wil all come down to what wood you use and the compromises you accept. No chisel is just about the steel in the blade. It is about the comfort of the handle, the balance over all, etc, etc. At some point we want to know about the steel qualities. Never take them out of context from the big picture.

Regards from Perth

Derek
 

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