Deep Rebating A Window Frame

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pollys13

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I'm going to be making replacement windows for my house, they will be flush fitting and made from Utile. 24mm glazing units on Ebay seem to be best price and a good quality they are also within reasonable, " free " collection distance.

The 24mm glazing units when placed in the sash will make everything quite a bit thicker. The whole lot will have to fit flush into a suitable sized rebate.

I read the posts on this forum about using the tablesaw to cut non through cuts. My riving knife is higher than the saw blade, so reading through the posts etc and considering, I think the table saw method for me, is a non starter.

I then looked at the Whitehill Combihead Scribe and Rebate Block on Axminster http://www.axminster.co.uk/whitehill-co ... k-ax823688

The block is Recessed for flush mounting with a countersunk screw allowing material to be passed above the cutter block.
Axminster told me I could cut a 100mm deep rebate with this block. Says it can use 40mm and 50mm knives but Axminster only list 40mm rebating knives.

When I was mulling this all over, frying my brain, trying to make sense of all this :)
I'm thinking, say a 60mm rebate in the frame seems awfully big to me I also thought taking out such a deep rebate might impact on the structural stability of the timber?

In the past I've had a look at the timber windows on Ebay to try to get an idea of how they were put together. I looked this evening, only looked at one so far, ( all this one finger typing takes ages, dictation software a no go, buck teeth, can't you speak properly, incoherent or what :) he is using 24mm glazing units and says, " Slimline frame, our casement frame is only 88mm " Looking at his section view see attached, his method of jointing seems a lot more complicated than how I'm thinking of doing it, he has an equivalent rebate area depth of about 60mm.

So such a deep rebate isn't as impractical as I was beginning to think. If I were to use the Whitehill combi head,I think I can use a false fence to allow me to get a 60mm rebate. Though 60mm of cutters knives is quite a lot exposed, that said I will be using my huge 1 hp power feed.
I think I would have to push the fence and shroud quite a way back to get the 60mm. I might not be able to move that far back, because of the powerfeed mount bolted into a steel plate I had made up so could fit the mount into the plate then bolt the plate into the table. I think the fence and shroud will be prevented going that far back because of the plate, that said I think I can repostion the plate to get around that.
Also the bottom of the shroud goes over the back of the table, several inches open underneath, don't think this will be too great for dust and chip extraction?

Lastly the Axminster combihead is £180, Whitehill do a 125 x 80 x 30b 4wg Shear Ally Rebate Head for £228 and also a 125 x 100 x 30b 4wg Ally Rebate Head for £236 both ex vat and delivery.

On his post showing how he made his window, Coley used an 80 or a 100 rebate with a tilting spindle to make his 9 degree window cill.
If I have a mate machine a recess into the Whitehill 125 x 80 x 30 head so I can fix it to the spindle with a countersunk screw.
Then I could use the Whitehill 125 x 80 x 30 or the Whitehill 125 x 100 x 30 to machine both the frame rebate and the cill. I think I might get better results doing the cill this way than using an angled sled on the thicknesser part of my Metabo 260 planer thicknesser
I had thought of doing the rebates on my Metabo 260 planer, thicknesser?

I don't know if I'm on the right page with all this, as ever, any help and advice much appreciated. I have Axminster WS1000TA spindle moulder which has a 100mm spindle and I believe has a spindle movement up,down of a 100mm.
Thanks guys.
 

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Doug71

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You should be cutting the rebate the other way on spindle so it is 60mm high. You will need to run it twice, first cut 30mm high then wind block up to 60mm and go again.

Doug
 

RobinBHM

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The rebate depth is usually 15mm or 18mm x say 60mm high.

You could groove first then use a 50mm or 60 rebate block to complete the frame rebate.

With a power feed, it is conventional to to run rebate above rather than below on window frames.

Note: if you are having casement stays, you need a big enough flat or dont mould the bottom frame section.

You will need 24mm soft coat low e with argon gas fill and maybe warm edge bar. Note some windows will require toughened glass.
 

pollys13

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RobinBHM":1mmxguj8 said:
The rebate depth is usually 15mm or 18mm x say 60mm high.

You could groove first then use a 50mm or 60 rebate block to complete the frame rebate.

With a power feed, it is conventional to to run rebate above rather than below on window frames.

Note: if you are having casement stays, you need a big enough flat or dont mould the bottom frame section.

You will need 24mm soft coat low e with argon gas fill and maybe warm edge bar. Note some windows will require toughened glass.

" You could groove first then use a 50mm or 60 rebate block to complete the frame rebate. " I was reading a post of the forum, how a chap was making a window rebate using hand tools, he said the easiest and quickest way he found to do it, was too plough both sides and then remove the strip left in the middle. When you say could groove, is this what you are talking about?

" The rebate depth is usually 15mm or 18mm x say 60mm high." Confused now, yes but the gazing unit by itself is 24mm, the completed sash has to rest in the rebate in the frame, frame rebate for flush casement.

" if you are having casement stays, you need a big enough flat or dont mould the bottom frame section." I don't follow you on this, could you try to explain more clearly please, I don't understand the terms you are using, technique you mean?

" it is conventional to to run rebate above rather than below on window frames. " Again could you make this clearer to me?
 

pollys13

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Doug71":1lokwtiv said:
You should be cutting the rebate the other way on spindle so it is 60mm high. You will need to run it twice, first cut 30mm high then wind block up to 60mm and go again.

Doug
Uum, OK I think I got you, for me, bit like having to think and picture things upside down, reverse way :)
Cheers.
 

pollys13

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If anyone has the time, little diagrams, sketches, links to photos would help.
Thanks.
 

pollys13

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Would I be required to work trickle vents into replacement windows? The windows will be a different design to the original.
 

pollys13

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Doug71":11o31wwh said:
You should be cutting the rebate the other way on spindle so it is 60mm high. You will need to run it twice, first cut 30mm high then wind block up to 60mm and go again.

Doug
Just to be clear, " You will need to run it twice, first cut 30mm high then wind block up to 60mm and go again."
So the cut doesn't have to be done in one pass? Can use double or even triple cuts to make up the 60mm?
I don't think I thought of that, as had at back of my mind doing double cutting with hollow chisel morticer can cause the walls to collapse, 1/2 chisel to make a 1 inch mortice.
Cheers.
 

tomatwark

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If you are using a light weight spindle moulder I would take out the rebate in at least 3 passes.

Also you will want to make a packer the depth of the rebate to fasten to the out feed fence when you are making the second and third passes, this will stop the wood twisting in to the block.

As you are totally new to making windows I would suggest you go and buy some softwood and make a small trail window, this will give you a chance to sort out how to do it in your head, as well as being cheaper when you make a cock up.
 

ColeyS1

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pollys13":1w79lahy said:
If anyone has the time, little diagrams, sketches, links to photos would help.
Thanks.
582ca1b7653ae39bc1202afb8232ac02.jpg

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40d1a1fd5c0ae7d0629f46d399eb2392.jpg

Sent from my SM-G900F using Tapatalk
 

Stormer1940

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Glazing beads need to be 15 x 15+mm at least. So you will also have to account for the depth of those in the thickness of the casement. Something along the 70mm thickness would be needed to accomodate a 10mm radius ovolo moulding + 3mm step, 13mm tenon & 47mm x 15mm rebate. As others have suggested the tallest part of the rebate should be done on the vertical measurement of the spindle and taken in 2/3 passes. The block on the out feed fence is safe practice as well (You could end up in all sort of trouble if the workpiece tips)
 

RobinBHM

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pollys13":1xqokvur said:
RobinBHM":1xqokvur said:
The rebate depth is usually 15mm or 18mm x say 60mm high.

You could groove first then use a 50mm or 60 rebate block to complete the frame rebate.

With a power feed, it is conventional to to run rebate above rather than below on window frames.

Note: if you are having casement stays, you need a big enough flat or dont mould the bottom frame section.

You will need 24mm soft coat low e with argon gas fill and maybe warm edge bar. Note some windows will require toughened glass.

" You could groove first then use a 50mm or 60 rebate block to complete the frame rebate. " I was reading a post of the forum, how a chap was making a window rebate using hand tools, he said the easiest and quickest way he found to do it, was too plough both sides and then remove the strip left in the middle. When you say could groove, is this what you are talking about?

" The rebate depth is usually 15mm or 18mm x say 60mm high." Confused now, yes but the gazing unit by itself is 24mm, the completed sash has to rest in the rebate in the frame, frame rebate for flush casement.

" if you are having casement stays, you need a big enough flat or dont mould the bottom frame section." I don't follow you on this, could you try to explain more clearly please, I don't understand the terms you are using, technique you mean?

" it is conventional to to run rebate above rather than below on window frames. " Again could you make this clearer to me?


rebate in frame: yes machine a groove first, say 18mm deep x whatever width your groover is -assuming you have an expanding groover or fixed grooving cutter

Rebate depth Im talking about is the rebate in the frame not the sash

the rebate in the sash is usually 15mm / 16mm / 18mm deep (4mm or 5mm air gap +spacer bar width of 12mm).

height of sash rebate = 24mm + glazing bead size (ours is 18mm so sash rebate is 43mm =24+18+1 extra 1mm added so bead doesnt end up proud)

if your windows are to be traditional with butt hinges, then to hold the sash open you will need a casement stay, or sometimes known as peg stay. This stay must be screwed onto the inside of the window on the part that is not rebated. This is the inside part of the frame that usually has a moulding say ovolo, the flat that is left before the start of the frame rebate is where the casement stay is positioned, too small and it will hang over the edge of the moulding. you have the option of just leaving the bottom of the frame without a moulding if that helps -it also means you dont need a scribe on that part which often makes making easier.

The rebate block is set so that it is working above the spindle mould bed. IE the inside frame face is down to the table.
 

pollys13

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tomatwark":3tl3ndnv said:
If you are using a light weight spindle moulder I would take out the rebate in at least 3 passes.

Also you will want to make a packer the depth of the rebate to fasten to the out feed fence when you are making the second and third passes, this will stop the wood twisting in to the block.

As you are totally new to making windows I would suggest you go and buy some softwood and make a small trail window, this will give you a chance to sort out how to do it in your head, as well as being cheaper when you make a cock up.

" packer the depth of the rebate to fasten to the out feed fence when you are making the second and third passes, this will stop the wood twisting in to the block. " Yes, I've been thinking about that on Peter Seftons spindle moulder training day he covered the use of what he called saddles to do the same thing. Also I will be doing several trial runs using cheap softwood.
Thanks.
 

pollys13

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Stormer1940":3m095tnq said:
Glazing beads need to be 15 x 15+mm at least. So you will also have to account for the depth of those in the thickness of the casement. Something along the 70mm thickness would be needed to accomodate a 10mm radius ovolo moulding + 3mm step, 13mm tenon & 47mm x 15mm rebate. As others have suggested the tallest part of the rebate should be done on the vertical measurement of the spindle and taken in 2/3 passes. The block on the out feed fence is safe practice as well (You could end up in all sort of trouble if the workpiece tips)

Thanks for that. "(You could end up in all sort of trouble if the workpiece tips) Yes Peter Sefton went into that and explained the use of saddles.
 

pollys13

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Uum, this what has caused my confusion. In my minds eye I was picturing viewing the window from the front. I understood the frame rebates had to be made down into it. ( which is actually so ) Made me think to achive this the workpiece itself had to me moved, horizontally 60mm whatever.... into the rebate head cutter itself . I think the light has come on and the same job is done my raising the spindle up one or more times to get the 60mm cut, vertically rather than moving the work piece horizontally down into rebate cutter. As I say was a bit bit back to front, bit like reverse image in a mirror but think I've got my head round the process now........ Feel a bit of a pineapple now, never mind.
Cheers.
 

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