Dakota/Quangsheng No 5. Jack Plane issue

[Dissolve]

Hello,

I won an auction on eBay for a Quangsheng No5 Jack Plane.

Looked lovely, sharpened well. Just came round to using it to flatten/square off some rough sawn and found it pretty damn hard to get flat. I'm no expert (yet) but I've flattened and squared off plenty of wood whilst studying and never found it take so long or as difficult as with this plane.

It dawned on me to check the flatness of the sole with my straight edge.. and there's a fair bit of gap between the very ends of the sole.

I'm not trying to blame tools for my own learning curves.. but I've used stanley, lie nielson and record jack/smoothing planes and found flattening and squaring off neck blanks/body blanks reasonably easy! So I'm just a bit concerned that the "bow" I'm seeing on the sole of my plane is more than acceptable when trying to create dead flat/accurate flat and square surfaces..

Just wondered what people accept to be "flat" in terms of plane soles and also what would people do in my situation?

Thanks people!

 

[Blister]

Sounds like its time for a phone call and return it for checking

Cant see it should have a bow in it as you would never get anything flat #-o

 

[Vann]

If you got it from WH, I'm sure Matthew will put it right - no matter how it was obtained (short of shoplifting of course :lol: ).

Cheers, Vann.

 

[Dissolve]

Yeah it was won off of eBay via the workshop heaven shop.. I didn't really think to check the sole as it was "used for photo or demo purposes" and looked absolutely mint!

But I've double checked it and with a straight edge which is even better.. it does reveal more light than I would like to see but I've contacted matthew through eBay and will wait a few days for a reply.

It was bought at the very end of March and only taken out of the box to sharpen since, then yesterday I attempted to flatten my first home project and it just wouldn't play nicely.

Hopefully he'll sort me out with a fix/replacement. Finger's crossed.

 

[Dangermouse]

hi
just to let you know that the British standard for sole flatness is 3 thou, if its that or below it should be very good to use, if its above it seems it needs flattening. Plenty of info on the site on how to do that. Of course the other thing that might be amiss is a twist in the sole. Have you checked for twist as well as flatness?

 

[pedder]

Don't get me wrong, I think you get what you've paid for. It's a jack plane.
Buy float glass and some sandpaper. Not a big thing.

Cheers
Pedder

 

[MIGNAL]

Light under a straightedge is pretty difficult to judge. Why don't you try to measure it - piece of paper, feeler gauge, cigarette paper.

 

[Dissolve]

Light under a straightedge is pretty difficult to judge. Why don't you try to measure it - piece of paper, feeler gauge, cigarette paper.

I'm just waiting to hear back from Workshop heaven to see if there's anything to check first.. I want to see how far the tolerances are.

I'll measure the gap in a few places and report back to see what people think about it.

What's the best way to check for a twist?

Thanks!

 

[o_LuCaS_o]

Hi dissolve!

The ways that come to my mind are:

1. Put the plane on a known flat surface and try to rock it, be pressing on opposite corners. Not a precise/quantitative method, but reveals twist.
2. Use winding sticks You could then shim to even up the sticks and count the difference.

You've mentioned that the surface of the plane is convex, so I think You must be very careful, if flattening with float glass not to make an even bigger banana I don't know, if my thinking is correct, but for a task like this, I'd first hollow a little the middle of the planes sole and then start full passes to take down two high spots...not one, which would be a rocking point. Like planning a board.

Regards,
Lukasz.

 

[matthewwh]

Hi,

Please could you check your hotmail account, there should be a response in there. I tried using the ebay messaging system but I think they were having some problems yesterday. If it hasn't come through let me know and I will send it again.

If you have access to inspection grade measuring kit and technicians on hand at college then that would be the best first step. Take your straight edge and your plane along and then you can check the accuracy of both.

If your plane is significantly out of tolerance I have a replacement ready to go which will be inspected prior to dispatch. I have yet to inspect one that is out but the possibility exists which is why we offer a lifetime guarantee. I suspect there may be a technique issue as well but I will be happy to help you out there too if required.

 

[Peter Sefton]

I have a selection of Quangsheng planes in my workshop - I know they were flat when I bought them from Workshop Heaven last year but your post made me check how they have faired after a year’s worth of student use. I have checked them on my granite inspection block with a feeler gauge and am pleased to report that out of the 6 I tested, 5 could not get a 0.0015 (1.5 thou) under the sole which matches a Lie Nielsen No 62 low angle jack plane.

On 1 of mine, I could get a 0.002 (2 thou) just under. As a comparison Cliftons are made to a tolerance of 0.003 (3 thou). I also tested a Clifton which did take a 3 thou feeler under the sole so like yours needs some flattening on 10mm float glass.

The Quangshengs cost me £89.50 so I think they are well worth the money in comparison. I would buy some self adhesive Ali Oxide, stick it to the glass and work it flat, the glass won’t be wasted if you have any other planes or maybe you could try out Scary sharpening - you may never look back!

Cheers

Peter

 

[bugbear]

Can we please be careful when comparing tolerances - "plus or minus 1.5" thou is pretty much the the same as "tolerance of 3 thou".

So you need to know what kind of tolerance you're talking about, not just the "thou" value.

BugBear

 

[pedder]

Hi Paul,

can you define + or - when we are talking about flatness? I mean +1 thou is cetainly - 1 thou at a nother point of the sole??

Cheers
Pedder

 

[bugbear]

Hi Paul,

can you define + or - when we are talking about flatness? I mean +1 thou is cetainly - 1 thou at a nother point of the sole??

Cheers
Pedder

plus/minus jargon is AKA maximum deviation from mean plane.

BugBear

 

[pedder]

And how does it help on planes? Japanese and corrugated planes have large minus areas. I think the question is how thick a feeler gauge you can put under the sole without rocking the plane. But that's probably me.

Cheers
Pedder

 

[Dissolve]

I managed to gain access to a grade A straight edge as well as a flatplate so I'm pretty sure these results are accurate..

I managed to check my straight edge against the grade A and I think that my straight edge must have taken a drop/knock without me knowing because it was not what it once was!

The plane appears to have moved ever so slightly as well.. the college technician was in a hurry so I'm not sure which feeler gauge he managed to get under it but he said it was within tolerance of 3 thou and nothing to worry about in terms of accuracy.

So basically, It's party down to the straight edge being dud, as well as my technique!

I'll email Matt too in case he doesn't see this but the plane is fine! thanks for getting back to me, and all of your help! fantastic customer service!

 

[dunbarhamlin]

I made the mistake of getting an axi straight edge once, too. It went the same way as non stick pans and wedding ring. All seemed like a good idea at the time but...

 

[Dissolve]

I made the mistake of getting an axi straight edge once, too. It went the same way as non stick pans and wedding ring. All seemed like a good idea at the time but...

I can't fault axminster for the service but considering they have a cheaper option available I was shocked. The plane has moved slightly too. But at least I know the it's not the plane's fault I'm producing bad edges! ahaha

 

[bugbear]

And how does it help on planes? Japanese and corrugated planes have large minus areas. I think the question is how thick a feeler gauge you can put under the sole without rocking the plane. But that's probably me.

Cheers
Pedder

In terms of "how flat is a sole", you're only worried about the parts that are meant to touch (*) being co planar.

To take an absurd example, drilling a random hole in the sole doesn't make it less flat.

Bugbear

(*) that's a whole other conversation

 

[matthewwh]

Congratulations, you are about to embark on a journey of discovery and learn how incredibly accurate a handplane really is.

I think an hour or two with a good DVD is called for. We stock a very good one by David Savage's senior instructor Daren Millman, another very good one is David Charlesworth's - available from his site, Rob Cosman is another well respected tutor and I believe his movies can be obtained from Classic Hand Tools. Any one of these will save you hours if not years of learning from your own mistakes.

The basic principle as Jacob mentioned earlier is to try as hard as you can to hollow the middle of the board out with the plane. The sole will prevent you from doing so by any more than the projection of the blade over the length of the sole (which is why they make planes in different lengths).

Examine the board before you begin. It will either be cupped (hollow on one face and convex on the other in its width) bowed (the same but in its length) or twisted (diagonally opposite corners high or low) to some degree. For cupping place the board convex side up, for bowing put it aside and cut it into shorter lengths, cutting list permitting. For twist, chock opposite corners with wedges but expect to lose quite a bit of thickness.

Starting with the cutting iron on the timber, take a shaving for most of its length, lifting off with the plane still moving forwards just before you get top the other end. In the event of twist, run right off the board at the high end, and start off the board on the near high end until the twist is eliminated and then start hollowing. Work in logical sequential sets of shavings.

When the shavings disappear to almost nothing you have created a very shallow, but uniform, dish. Only then should you start taking shavings with the cutting iron starting off the board and planing right through until it has left the other end.

Only make one set of these full length shavings working across the board from one side to the other. Check by laying a straightedge on the board and wiggling one end, if it pivots about the far end you have a flat face that you can gauge and square off and then flatten the other surfaces to your gauge lines. Once you've cracked it the result will be a four squared board, sized to an accuracy of a couple of thou.

If you reach thickness around the edges and still have a rough spot in the middle you can often get it smooth but slightly more hollow (though no one will notice) with a smoother No.3, 4 or 4-1/2. The shorter sole of these planes allows them to work within the cuvature created by longer planes.