Cycling question

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phil.p":2tpts59y said:
If anyone is killed by a cyclist on a pavement, the cyclist was probably there deliberately. Anyone killed by a car on the pavement is unlikely to have been killed by a car driver who intended to be on the pavement. There are many times times more drivers than cyclists anyway, which makes that statistic meaningless.

Yes, the cyclist was there deliberately, normally because of fear of traffic. But the number of deaths they cause is tiny. You are more likely to be struck by lightning. Drivers also are deliberately on the pavement and do cause accidents. Another comment here gives an example. Far more than cyclists. If there were more cyclists I dare say there would be more accidents. But then if drivers were more competent, people would be more willing to cycle in the road. People would rather not cycle on the pavement, given a fair choice.
 
Many thanks for the clarification, finial. Guess it all comes down to personal experience and observation as well as recorded figures. Lived in London from 1985 to 2005. My tally ?

Hit by cyclist - twice - once on the pavement, once him going the wrong way down a one-way street.

Cyclist - near misses c. 20 or so. It coincided with the peak of messenger cyclists...

Hit by a car or other vehicle - none (thankfully)

Car - near misses - 1

By those figures, car drivers are better than cyclists !!!
So my own experience differs from yours !!
 
As a cyclist, I've hit a car, which is probably unusual.

I was coming down a gentle slope, probably doing 20-23 mph, when an oncoming Citroen car suddenly turned right, across my path, to get into a car park entrance. (I found out later he wasn't going to turn, but he saw a space at the last minute).

I dented the F** out of his passenger door. Didn't do me or the bike a lot of good though.

I was wearing clothing best described as "gaudy", had fully working lights, and ankle reflectors (3m Scotchlite).

His words as he emerged from his vehicle?

.
.
.

"Sorry mate, I didn't see you".

BugBear
 
bugbear":cajirote said:
........
.

"Sorry mate, I didn't see you".

BugBear
is widely known in cycling circles as a "smidsy". It happens all the time. Bright yellow helps - and assertive cycling; sticking to the middle of lanes, holding on to your road space etc.
 
This is a rant. Please ignore it if you wish.

Here in Bristol, where I've ridden a bike for about 35 years, we have a lot of money spent on 'schemes'.

In the last five years or so we've spent (of other people's money!):

- 12 million on bus lanes (which have CAUSED at least three serious accidents (incl. fatality) when pedestrrians have been hit)
- More than 10 million on 20mph zones
- Unknown amounts on "residents' parking schemes"

Had this money gone straight to the police to pay for traffic officers, I think it would have been far better spent.

Cyclists belong on the roads -- on SAFE roads -- not pavements. The enthusiasm for breaking traffic law, either by riding on the pavements or jumping red lights (or whatever) is understandable, but not really excusable. The ones that do it aren't actually statistically safer because they are, by definintion, behaving unpredictably, and thus very likely to do something a driver will misinterpret. Never mind hitting pedestrians (well, they do here, anyway)...

Enforcing good driver behaviour, by actually catching the bad ones, would work. Many drivers resent cyclists sharing their road space, and that attitude needs changing. Similarly, cyclists need to ride to a higher standard and be law abiding, just like anyone else. Enforcing both is the police's responsibility, yet their funding is being cut.

Accidents are CAUSED by many of these expensive schemes, especially at the boundaries. They are also rarely thought through properly, and the law of unintended consequences applies with a vengance:

- One of our expensive bus lanes had to be re-done (planners' fault, so at the taxpayers' expense), because it was found to be causing FOUR MILE tailbacks simply because it was about 100 FEET too long, and traffic couldn't use a junction properly.

- I've already mentioned the fatalities and other accidents caused by the scheme in the Centre.

- I now live on a major road which is officially 20MPH. At the bottom end of my road is a police station, a major hospital with a casualty department and a fire station. Guess which road they use with blues+twos to get places fast. But pedestrians -- many are elderly round here (and deaf!) -- are now EXPECTING 20MPH traffic! There are five zebra crossings between here and the police station. The first fatality will probably be from a police car, with a preoccupied driver forgetting to switch on the siren, or a full fire engine overturning after hitting the high curb on the islands.

- We have another major road very close by, with a 20MPH section on one of its widest parts for less than 350 yards. I am certain the only purpose is future revenue-raising. Obviously I live in a city, but this bit of road has LOWER housing density than the 30MPH bits either side of it.

- We have several bus lanes where the buses run against one-way traffic flow. The predictable accidents have happened, quite a lot.

Our city traffic department seems almost completely unaccountable. This has got far worse since we got a mayor with executive powers. Schemes that have had HUGE amounts of local resident and political opposition have been pushed through regardless of locals or their councillors.

Our traffic is slower than ever before. The city has more traffic light poles than it can count (there are seventy four on the old Tramways Centre alone, which was a simple roundabout in the 1980s). Someone is getting very rich through all this, and our roads are no more efficiently used, nor safer for the 'greenest' users, meaning cyclists and pedestrians.

There have to be better ways of doing all this...

E.
 
I know how you feel BugBear.
I had a similar one from a guy who drove out of an alley way that connected his house to the main road, a dual carriageway. he'd lived there for 20 years and only every looked to the right, coz he didn't know that the path he crossed everyday had been a cycle path for the last 15 years. Me, i ended up in the outside lane of the dual carriage way with a totally wrecked bike and 2 broken bones dislocated shoulder. Then his insurance company had the affront to offer me £400 for a £2K bike
ah well
 
Eric The Viking":2dsmtknt said:
Cyclists belong on the roads -- on SAFE roads -- not pavements......

There have to be better ways of doing all this....

Too right about the second point!

A lot of cyclists say that about the roads, but they will never be safe enough for mass cycling. Human error is always there. Parents will never let their children cycle on the roads with significant amounts of traffic. But cycling doesn't belong on the pavement either. So for most people cycling has effectively been banned.

A small part of the nation's transport budget spent on good cycle tracks would solve a lot of major problems and benefit everyone.
 
I was wearing clothing best described as "gaudy", had fully working lights, and ankle reflectors (3m Scotchlite).

His words as he emerged from his vehicle?

.
.
.

"Sorry mate, I didn't see you". - BB

I was on my motorbike the first day I owned it when a woman drove out in front of a stopped, blocking the lane with heavy traffic coming the other. She wasn't looking into the sun, she undoubtedly did see me - she was looking in my eyes, smiling. Me and my bike - 8'5" long, half a tonne with me on it. Headlights and hi viz. I looked down at the clock - 87 miles. From new. I shifted my feet, got my thumbs on top the bars and got ready to go over the top. Fortunately she took fright at the last moment and lurched forward. I just got behind her.
Many car drivers seem to think if you're on a cycle/motorcycle you can turn on a sixpence and stop in six feet. I have driven a car most of my life, a cycle, a motorcycle, small flat bed trucks, 7.5T ers and 5T dumpers - each of them give you a slightly different outlook.
 
Sunday we had a mass village bike ride organised by local mountain bikers for a charity fund. More than 100 turned out including kids down to 4, adults up to 70 (me) and a lot of people who hardly use bikes.
17mile route mostly lanes and tracks. Road crossings with police halting traffic and the whole thing marshalled.
They had kept the route secret as half the people there would have been completely put off by the hills. As it is they nearly all completed it and saw bits of the Peak district which they'd never seen before.
Brilliant! Great success - acknowledged by all.
 
phil.p":213pkw0l said:
...each of them give you a slightly different outlook.

This is very true. I've noticed a change in my driving since getting the elderly Discovery. For starters, if you ever want to overtake a slower vehicle then you need to have about a fortnights' notice. Speedy acceleration, it ain't. Also at around two tonnes that's an awful lot of momentum and so you also tend to drive slower with more space between you and the vehicle in front. "Pottering" is the phrase that springs to mind.

So then put me in the S2000 and I find that my driving style is still very much 'pottering'. With the occasional foray up the MPH scale, I have to confess.

Age might have something to do with it as well!
 
Jacob said:
....
They had kept the route secret as half the people there would have been completely put off by the hills. ...../quote]

Overweight+Man+Wearing+Spandex+Cycling+Clothes.jpg


Sorry, couldn't resist :D
 
Here's something to think about.
If there was a law passed to say cyclists were no longer allowed on the road but had use the pavements, would the total number of serious injuries and fatalities due to traffic (including cycles) increase or decrease ?
 
mind_the_goat":3k77wjkd said:
Here's something to think about.
If there was a law passed to say cyclists were no longer allowed on the road but had use the pavements, would the total number of serious injuries and fatalities due to traffic (including cycles) increase or decrease ?

I've wondered about this myself. More bikes on the pavement would likely increase pedestrian injuries, almost all very minor, but if you knock an old lady over sometimes it's fatal. And if people weren't risking a fine by riding on the pavement to keep themselves safe the number of riders might well rise. But many would be potterers, not the young, fit commuters who make up most of the riders today.

But then the riders would be safer, and every person riding is someone not in a motor vehicle, which are much more dangerous to riders and pedestrians, so that would tend to reduce the number of accidents. And it would tend to reduce air pollution, which kills many people, and reduce ill-health and obesity so saving the NHS a lot of money. And also it would reduce congestion and other problems so would have a number of plus points.
 
phil.p":3mw9u2aq said:
I think many cyclists believe that laws already been passed. :)

It has in some places. There are quite a lot of shared use pavements. Even more where pavement driving is allowed. Personally, in London, I have never, ever, not once, been inconvenienced, felt threatened or injured by someone riding on the pavement. Or in the road. The government's position is that there is nothing wrong with considerate pavement cycling. But most people don't cycle at all now.

Did you know that even small children break the law if they cycle on the pavement? Officially, a five year old on her first bicycle is meant to be in the road with the traffic.
 
riding my 20 miles to work would be very very tedious if I wasn;t allowed to use the roads - I'd probably not do it. I think many people would give up cycling if they had to use the pavement. I don't believe legalising pavement cycling would entice people out of cars, especially for cummuting. it would be too slow having to stop every 80m for a side road. (one of the reasons I don't use most cycle paths is that one isn't treatred like a vehicle and don't get the same priorities as vehicles on the road). I don't think it would change the KSIs much at all
 
mseries":2larnt66 said:
riding my 20 miles to work would be very very tedious if I wasn;t allowed to use the roads - I'd probably not do it. I think many people would give up cycling if they had to use the pavement. I don't believe legalising pavement cycling would entice people out of cars, especially for cummuting. it would be too slow having to stop every 80m for a side road. (one of the reasons I don't use most cycle paths is that one isn't treatred like a vehicle and don't get the same priorities as vehicles on the road). I don't think it would change the KSIs much at all

Pavement riding is no good for people like you, not so bad for most though. But it's not the answer. If there were good cycle tracks the only problem you would have is the large number of people using them. I'm not aware of any good tracks in this country. Lots that are nice to ride on, but not suitable for utility cycling.
 
RogerS":87jp40yb said:
Finial":87jp40yb said:
......
The evidence is the result of police investigations that show drivers are usually the cause of accidents. Not much traffic law applies to pedestrians, but they aren't as careful as people on bikes, as a general thing - they cause more accidents......

Sorry but this is all still hearsay. It might be personal observation but without any links to surveys/studies etc then it all remains just that - hearsay.

OK, have a look at table 14 near the end of this document

http://www.tfl.gov.uk/cdn/static/cm...nd-casualities-in-greater-london-sep-2011.pdf

Probably similar to figures from elsewhere.
 
Finial":1yy85562 said:
RogerS":1yy85562 said:
Finial":1yy85562 said:
......
The evidence is the result of police investigations that show drivers are usually the cause of accidents. Not much traffic law applies to pedestrians, but they aren't as careful as people on bikes, as a general thing - they cause more accidents......

Sorry but this is all still hearsay. It might be personal observation but without any links to surveys/studies etc then it all remains just that - hearsay.

OK, have a look at table 14 near the end of this document

http://www.tfl.gov.uk/cdn/static/cm...nd-casualities-in-greater-london-sep-2011.pdf

Probably similar to figures from elsewhere.
Interesting that they assign 'exceeding speed limit' 30 times to cyclists, when speed limits apply only to motor vehicles. Exceeding speed limit itself is surely not a contributory factor, 'travelling too fast for conditions' would be though and they assign this 67 times to cyclists.
 
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