Counterfeit and 'Knock-off' Tools

[Cheshirechappie]

I've loved this thread. Hand tool woodworking and the failings of international capitalism and neo colonialism, can't think of a better combination. I was terribly disappointed when I discovered Chris Schwartz's anarchist tool chest wasn't about anarchism, just about a box to put expensive (all be it genuine) tools in.
If you really want an ethical tool kit buy second hand and make your own. However, partly under the influence of you lot I already annoy the other people at my dry dock by chopping mortices with chisels and sawing wood with hand saws. "Why don't you use a router/table saw for that?" , I just tell that they are too noisy and besides it only takes me about 10x as long with hand tools. If I insisted on making all my tools I think we'd go bust.

Well, this is the Hand Tool Forum! Somebody could always start a thread about the ethics of buying Chinese-made routers on the General Woodworking forum if they prefer power tool woodwork, or the ethics of wearing knock-off Chinese Y-fronts on the General Forum (bearing in mind that most people prefer to cover their ah-so in public).

Cheshirechappie, for what it's worth I think you may have misunderstood me (probably my fault for not explaining myself clearly). In the last 2 years I have almost completely stopped using power tools for everything except wood preparation and drilling (for wood work, I still use power for metal). I have found it has probably slowed me down (not really by a factor of ten) but has made me enjoy my days much more and too my surprise has not negatively effected accuracy (if anything the other way round) and has definitely reduced waste. It is the other two people that work at my dock that keep trying to get me back on the machines.
In my "dream workshop" all the tools are homemade. All I was saying is right now we have boats to fix and making all my own tools would be a step too far in galootishness. Slowly though I will get there.
I have been browsing this forum for a lot longer than I have been posting and it has been an inspiration to me.
In the winter I wear long johns (the docks not heated), probably not ethical, but in the summer I go commando.

Paddy

I'm sorry, Paddy. I think I did get the wrong end of the stick, there. For what it's worth, I think the finest wood craftsmen are competent with handtools, hand power tools and fixed machines, and are able to decide which is most appropriate in any given situation to get the job done quickly, economically and to the required standard. It can sometimes be quicker to chop a mortice by hand than to faff around running extension leads for the router, for example; but hand-planing a deck's worth of planking to thickness would be daft if there's a thicknesser to hand.

As to politics and anarchy - well, it's up to each to find their own position, I think!

 

[n0legs]

As to politics and anarchy - well, it's up to each to find their own position, I think!

That's a cracking line, can't be disputed by many.
Nice one CC =D>

 

[Trafalgar]

Let's start a list of those who have copied Stanley-Bailey and/or Stanley-Bedrock planes:

Lie-Nielsen, Quiangsheng, Record, Marples, Millers Falls, Fulton, Siegley, Shelton, Winchester, Dunlap, Union, Sargent, Ohio Tool Co., Keen Kutter, a few Russian brands seen here (http://russianhandplanecentral.blogspot.com/),

Can anybody add to the list? That's all I can think of at the moment.

 

[KevM]

As to politics and anarchy - well, it's up to each to find their own position, I think!

That's a cracking line, can't be disputed by many.
Nice one CC =D>

Well, except perhaps some of those happy Chinese factory workers...

 

[Jacob]

Let's start a list of those who have copied Stanley-Bailey and/or Stanley-Bedrock planes:

Lie-Nielsen, Quiangsheng, Record, Marples, Millers Falls, Fulton, Siegley, Shelton, Winchester, Dunlap, Union, Sargent, Ohio Tool Co., Keen Kutter, a few Russian brands seen here (http://russianhandplanecentral.blogspot.com/),

Can anybody add to the list? That's all I can think of at the moment.

Stanley copied part of the bedrock design from Sargent.

 

[iNewbie]

Let's start a list of those who have copied Stanley-Bailey and/or Stanley-Bedrock planes:

Why?

Whats the point in making a post about how many copied Stanley if you've no issue about others copying. Something else you'd like to argue about charles? At 18 pages we're down to crumbs, now...

 

[Jacob]

Let's start a list of those who have copied Stanley-Bailey and/or Stanley-Bedrock planes:

Why?

Whats the point in making a post about how many copied Stanley if you've no issue about others copying. .......

The point is there are a lot of dedicated fans of LN LV who think they can do no wrong and that all the other makers, past and present, are dodgy counterfeiters and guilty of all sorts of immoral practices.
Comical really!

 

[n0legs]

Well, except perhaps some of those happy Chinese factory workers...

No comment 8)
Some posts have gone missing, where's Mulder and Scully :lol:

 

[n0legs]

Why?

Don't read if you don't want to.
But some people can't help themselves, that's why others are here.... remember :wink:

 

[iNewbie]

Let's start a list of those who have copied Stanley-Bailey and/or Stanley-Bedrock planes:

Why?

Whats the point in making a post about how many copied Stanley if you've no issue about others copying. .......

The point is there are a lot of dedicated fans of LN LV who think they can do no wrong and that all the other makers, past and present, are dodgy counterfeiters and guilty of all sorts of immoral practices.
Comical really!

Are there really a-lot Jacob? I'd like to know who they are. Do you have names, too?

I'm thinking this is your baseless assumption - as usual.

I think (note, think,.... not objective) theres are a couple of people on here with a distorted view of others views - that'll have you believe their distorted views if you are comical enough to follow those blind lepers...

There's not been one person on here who has said LV or LN can do no-wrong. Period.

 

[iNewbie]

Why?

Don't read if you don't want to.
But some people can't help themselves, that's why others are here.... remember :wink:

I can't help myself though.

 

[n0legs]

I can't help myself though.

Then my friend you need the assistance of a Doughnut Rescue Centre I've seen advertised :lol:

 

[iNewbie]

Don't you try and sugar me up - I ain't biting'...

 

[Trafalgar]

What exactly make Quiangsheng more despicable than Record? Or Ohio Tool Co.? Or Fulton, Sargent, et al.? Maybe they were called low-life scum back when they were in business copying Stanley (or copying each other's copy of Stanley). If so, did they deserve to be?

 

[iNewbie]

What exactly make Quiangsheng more despicable than Record? Or Ohio Tool Co.? Or Fulton, Sargent, et al.? Maybe they were called low-life scum back when they were in business copying Stanley (or copying each other's copy of Stanley). If so, did they deserve to be?

Only you've bought the words despicable and low-life scum into it. You seem enraged over your assumptions.

I can't speak for anyone else but, I don't have an issue with QS, never said I have. I don't like how Wood**** conducted their part in their LN dealings. Nothing wrong with that either.

 

[Job and Knock]

Let's start a list of those who have copied Stanley-Bailey and/or Stanley-Bedrock planes:
Lie-Nielsen, Quiangsheng, Record, Marples, Millers Falls, Fulton, Siegley, Shelton, Winchester, Dunlap, Union, Sargent, Ohio Tool Co., Keen Kutter, a few Russian brands seen here (http://russianhandplanecentral.blogspot.com/),
Can anybody add to the list?

In the UK add: Chapman (Acorn), Footprint, GTL (not the brass ones, they sold Acorns as GTL for a short while), Mathieson, Preston, J. Sorby, Spear & Jackson, Spiers, WS, Woden and Whitemore - some of which were actually pretty good

In Germany: Kunz
In the Netherlands: Nooitgedagt
In India: Anant, Soba and a galaxy of others
In China (branded): Am-Tek, Blackspur, Draper, Faithfull, Rolson, Silverline (these are ones I've seen with the name cast into the lever cap)

In America: Craftsman, Winchester (Sargent) and possibly you might want to add Gage (later bought by Stanley)

.... I'm sure that more will come to me in due course. Fundamentally half the British tool industry took a pop at it after the patents ended (although Qualcast at Chesterfield? seem to have done a lot of the castings) - are the naysayers going to start calling them?

 

[Trafalgar]

What exactly make Quiangsheng more despicable than Record? Or Ohio Tool Co.? Or Fulton, Sargent, et al.? Maybe they were called low-life scum back when they were in business copying Stanley (or copying each other's copy of Stanley). If so, did they deserve to be?

Only you've bought the words despicable and low-life scum into it. You seem enraged over your assumptions.

I can't speak for anyone else but, I don't have an issue with QS, never said I have. I don't like how Wood**** conducted their part in their LN dealings. Nothing wrong with that either.

Tongue-in-cheek for me -- 95% of my kit is Record, Marples, S&J, etc. Not engraged a bit -- enjoying the fruits.

 

[G S Haydon]

The tool lists illustrate the point very well that if you come up with a good design it must be anticipated that you will be copied. That does not mean the copied products are necessary examples of "knock off" and "Piracy". Who came up with the first ratchet brace? Who copied them? Everyone did!

Sadly I don't know about patent laws but I would assume you'd have to come up with something pretty unique to make it worthwhile. In normal circumstances 5 years of trading with something unique before the copying starts would be reasonable. At least by discussing this, on forums we can raise awareness of what happens.

I took a look at the tite mark gauge on Kevin's site and seeing how much it is I would most likely buy it from him, if I wanted a gauge like that and if I lived in the US. It looks nicely finished. Looking at some of the tools there and on other similar websites I am struck how easily they lend themselves to factory production. Since the industrial revolution all manner of things can be made to very high standards at relatively low cost. It's funny how sometimes it can be seen that making things in mass volume means less quality, after all, the machines have no free will, we only impose our standards upon them. This is perhaps why I see no issue buying the cheaper option if that is the viable choice, potentially someone else can make them more efficiently.

I would speculate that would be why we'll see no one try and offer products from Old Street Tools or Philly. A set of hollows and rounds are now very popular and are a significant outlay but there is no option but to go to those crafts people. I'm sure machines get used in those businesses but they would not be production machines so to speak and getting the right kind of beech is not going to be easy.

Oh yes, and Rapier for another Bailey copy.

 

[Jacob]

.....
.... I'm sure that more will come to me in due course. Fundamentally half the British tool industry took a pop at it after the patents ended (although Qualcast at Chesterfield? seem to have doone a lot of the castings) - are the naysayers going to start calling them?

Qualcast Derby did castings for Record. I seem to recall they have a letter "Q" in the casting somewhere. I don't think they did a Qualcast brand plane but they could have done.
Which is another point - the actual brand names and the actual makers have a very fluid relationship like musical chairs, often not in the same place together for very long.

 

[Job and Knock]

Qualcast Derby did castings for Record. I seem to recall they have a letter "Q" in the casting somewhere.

So do my Chapman Acorns for that matter

Which is another point - the actual brand names and the actual makers have a very fluid relationship like musical chairs, often not in the same place together for very long.

Yes, the "little mesters" in Sheffield were all self-employed subbies who traditionally made a lot of stuff on sub-contract the the bigger names. That even includes firms which later became well known in their own right such as Footprint, but who made stuff for many others in the past. The same sort of thing happens today with mechanical and electronic products from washing machines to power tools to computers.