Changing a motor switch and pulley

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memzey

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Hi gang,

I recently restored an old Wadkin dimension saw and am really happy with the way it is functioning. One thing that I still need to do is address the electrics including the motor. The original motor (which came with the saw) and switch are a three phase 2hp arrangement. The motor that is currently on the machine is single phase 2hp and the previous owner simply wired the three phase switch to run it. I'm convinced that's not the correct way to do it though, as the rating on the motor (8 amps) exceeds that of the switch (something like 4 amps IIRC). Although I expect some of you are aghast at the thought of this, the switch and motor appear to be running fine like this and if I weren't going to make any further changes I'd probably run with it like that. I do however wish to change the motor to a 3hp single phase one and do not want to risk running that with the current switch without taking further advice (asking bob et al on this board in other words). I could get a new switch but that would completely ruin the aesthetics of the machine which I am unwilling to do. I suppose I either need a suitable switch that looks like the one I already have or a change or upgrade to the innards of the existing switch. Below is a picture of the item in question with the wiring exposed:



My second question is about arbour diameter of pulleys and motor spindles. The new and the old motors both have smaller spindles (about 19mm I think) than I can find on a 3hp variant. The new motor fits ok on the original 3 belt pulley arrangement. Does anyone know of a supplier of 3hp, single phase, 19mm keyed motors? I've done all the research I can muster at the moment and have drawn a blank. New three belt pulleys of suitable arbour and relative dimension also appear to be like hens' teeth. Below is a pic of the original 3 phase motor if anyone is interested:



Many thanks for reading.
 
The only way to meet your constraints that I know of is to return it to three phase and run it from a converter. The switch at 4 amps per phase should be ok
You are most unlikely to find upgrade parts for that switch unless you have a local Ark breakers yard and 3hp sp motors come with a 24mm shaft.

Bob
 
Thanks bob (I was hoping you'd reply :)). So it sounds like I need to change the pulley when I swap out the motor. Are you saying the switch is still likely to work ok with a 3hp motor then? That would be convenient if so.
 
The switch should be OK with a 3 phase motor but absolutely no good at all with a 3hp single phase motor. Hence my reply saying stick to 3 phase and use a converter.

Bob
 
The 3 phase switch should handle 12 Amps single phase. For a single phase 2.2KW motor this should be enough.
Only trouble might be inrush current.
Probably best to replace the switch.
 
If you take the neutral wires from the third phase contacts and connect them straight through you can then link out all three phases on the switch to give you the extra current capacity you need for a 3hp 240v motor.
 
MMUK":3b022rqx said:
If you take the neutral wires from the third phase contacts and connect them straight through you can then link out all three phases on the switch to give you the extra current capacity you need for a 3hp 240v motor.
Cheers MM that was exactly the kind of outcome I was hoping for. Just to be clear; you mean for me to connect the blue wires either side of the switch (thereby bypassing it) right?
 
MMUK":edwc9tpy said:
If you take the neutral wires from the third phase contacts and connect them straight through you can then link out all three phases on the switch to give you the extra current capacity you need for a 3hp 240v motor.
Cheers MM that was exactly the kind of outcome I was hoping for. Just to be clear; you mean for me to connect the blue wires either side of the switch (thereby bypassing it) right?
 
You might get away with this switching proposal but strictly it has to be assumed that one contact will close before the others and this will take the first hit on the inrush current on starting which will typically be 25-30 amps so paralleling switch contacts is frowned upon.

Don't forget that you are are unlikely to be able to run this motor off a 13amp plug, so a 16amp commando socket plus a 16 or 20amp type C MCB will be advisable direct from your workshop consumer unit.
Bob
 
memzey":1zrmt4j6 said:
MMUK":1zrmt4j6 said:
If you take the neutral wires from the third phase contacts and connect them straight through you can then link out all three phases on the switch to give you the extra current capacity you need for a 3hp 240v motor.
Cheers MM that was exactly the kind of outcome I was hoping for. Just to be clear; you mean for me to connect the blue wires either side of the switch (thereby bypassing it) right?

Yep, exactly that.

All three poles should switch within milliseconds of each other so there shouldn't be too much worry about any contact burning out. Full load current will be between 17A and 19A, depending on actual supply voltage so expect a start surge of around 24A-26A.

You should double check the current rating of the actual switch, ideally you want a rating of 10A per phase or more.
 
Cheers guys. I'm not sure how to check that but I'll have a nose around a bit later and report back. I fully expect to run the machine from a commando socket with the appropriate wiring in the shop.
 
Not a good idea to bypass the Neutral. If the live and neutral get exchanged anywhere upstream and you get an earth fault the motor WILL start to run. That's why live and Neutral must both go though the switch. Swapped live and neutral is a very easy and common error in wiring.
 
deema":a7xuulhx said:
Not a good idea to bypass the Neutral. If the live and neutral get exchanged anywhere upstream and you get an earth fault the motor WILL start to run. That's why live and Neutral must both go though the switch. Swapped live and neutral is a very easy and common error in wiring.


No it won't. Even if live and neutral get swapped elsewhere you still don't have a complete circuit until the switch is activated. On a single phase motor it makes no difference if polarity is reversed anyway - it's AC so current flows both ways.

In most cases the neutral isn't switched anyway, it only tends to be higher end equipment that has double pole switching.
 
So I had a look but the rating is quite hard to see - something like 1.7 to 2.5 or 3.5 amps:



Perhaps I should have mentioned it also has an isolator in line with the starter:



I always isolate the electrics in this way when I am not using the machine.
 
If Neutral become live due to the wires being swapped over somewhere, and there is an earth fault with the neutral bypassed in the switch the motor will run. Earth and neutral are in essence the same. So, if the neutral becomes live the earth becomes the route for the current to flow. This will start the motor. This is why in the UK it is required for a breaker or NO Voltage Switch that it switches both live and neutral.

The motor does not care which way around you connect live, it will always run in the same direction depending of the field / capacitor wiring.
 
deema":2p2y7slm said:
If Neutral become live due to the wires being swapped over somewhere, and there is an earth fault with the neutral bypassed in the switch the motor will run. Earth and neutral are in essence the same. So, if the neutral becomes live the earth becomes the route for the current to flow. This will start the motor. This is why in the UK it is required for a breaker or NO Voltage Switch that it switches both live and neutral.

The motor does not care which way around you connect live, it will always run in the same direction depending of the field / capacitor wiring.

Aren't RCDs obligatory in the UK?
 
dzj":1hts85uo said:
Aren't RCDs obligatory in the UK?

Unfortunately not. Although any low voltage (under 1000vAC) circuit installed from 2001 onwards must be protected by an RCD as defined by BS7671 16th Edition onwards.

IMHO, anyone who runs any form of machinery without one is an silly person and an accident waiting to happen.

For those of you in business and not running RCD protected circuits on your tools and machinery, you may well find your insurance is void should you need to claim.
 
I can't help feeling some mixed standards here MMUK

One minute you are saying
"IMHO, anyone who runs any form of machinery without one [RCD] is an silly person and an accident waiting to happen"

And elsewhere you are advocating single pole switch of a motor?

Bob
 
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