Chair repair advice

[jt]

I have a set of oak wartime utility chairs which I would like to repair. They've been in my family for about 40 years, my parents having bought them at an auction when first married.

Apparently I'm not the first person to attempt repairs - holding them together there is a mixture of loose (as in wobbly) M&T joints, dowels, iron brackets and nails. I'd like to get away from using brackets and nails if possible.

I think the M&T joints are beyond being pared back and patched up with shavings as I've seen suggested on other threads, so I was thinking of using some sort of glue/epoxy to fill the gaps. Where dowels have been used in previous repairs and worked loose I was thinking of pulling or drilling them out and replacing with thicker ones.

I am a relative beginner in this type of work, so could I ask for suggestions for methods and products to use for filling the loose M&T's (West system epoxy for example?), and general advice about how I might go about making repairs that will look ok and be safe/strong?

Many thanks in advance,
Jim

 

[Benchwayze]

Hi and welcome...

A proper repair.

Dismantle. Replace all broken dowels using some kind of jig and 10mm dowel. The Woden jig is ideal, if you can find one.
Clean off the old glue. Make sure there's no woodworm dust. If there is, treat with a woodwork killer.
Reassemble with animal glue, so they can be dismantled if necessary in future.
replace the diagonal corner braces. If there are none, consider fitting some.
Fill the holes where necessary and stain over as best you can.

These chairs are a stout design. Well worth keeping if you like them.
My next set of dining chairs will be repro based on the design.

If you find a Woden Jig it will be Imperial measure, and you will need to reduce 10mm dowels to 3/8 inch. Dowel plates are easily obtainable to do this.

You will have to consider that some of the dowels will be angled, (Unless the seat is square) so drilling out the dowels will have to be done accurately, or the chair wont cramp up properly. It might be best to cut them off flush where you can, and re drill for new dowels.

HTH

John

 

[bosshogg]

Hi Jim,

with this type of work,done properly, the need to cramp up various joints is a must, unless you are using fox wedged M&T. A strap clamp is invaluable here as you can loop the strap around as many of the glued up joints as poss, set the chair square on the floor and allow it to dry. These ones look good http://www.plas.uk.net/Catalogue/La...hings/15-Tonne-Ratchet-Lashing-with-Claw-Hook I should say I bought mine at Lidl, dirt cheap, worth looking out for...bosshogg

 

[Racers]

Hi, Jim

Or a lenght of rope and a stick. loop round the chair stick the stick in and twist.

Pete

 

[twothumbs]

Would second the rope method suggested - a windlass. Can work a treat and doesn't cost. Helps if you have another pair of hands to hold cardboard protectors on the corners. Make sure the rope isn't too long and that you have a way of holding the stick after you have wound it up. A piece of string can do it or jamb the stick behind what it is you are clamping if possible. Do a dry run first to get a feel for rope winding up. Best wishes.

 

[AndyT]

Sometimes another option for mending a knackered mortise and tenon joint is to chisel out for a loose tenon into both pieces (a bit like a domino!).

Also, if the tenons are on the ends of a stretcher, and you don't want to disturb the legs, you might get away with sawing square across the ends of the stretcher, inserting loose tenons into the legs, and chopping out the bottom of the old mortices, so you can drop the stretcher over both tenons at once - a sort of bridle joint.

This is much better with diagrams - I recommend Charles Hayward's book on antique furniture repairs which is where this all comes from.

 

[jt]

Many thanks for all the replies (and the further detail I received over pm).

These chairs have over time seated 4 generations of my family, I agree they deserve the best restoration I can manage so perhaps they can eventually seat a 5th (hopefully many years away..). I think I'm pretty much equipped tool and clamp-wise, although I will investigate a Woden dowel jig as I imagine it's far superior to the Silverline thingy I bought before I discovered ebay as a source of tools.

I hope you don't mind a suplimentary question or two - as I mentioned, I'm not very experienced in restoration, and I don't have access to any decent power tools so this will all be done by hand.

I reckon it would be more within my skill levels to fill wobbly mortice and tenons with an offcut of oak and replace with dowels, rather than domino style loose tenons. Would this massively compromise strength?

Also, could you recommend a good source for animal glue? I don't have a glue pot but imagine I could cobble something up with a pot of hot water and a tin can if needed.

Thanks again,
Jim

 

[bosshogg]

[email protected] <[email protected]> It's called pearl glue as it comes in easy to use pearl-beads in a bag. I remember the smell as if it was yesterday, good luck...bosshogg

 

[Benchwayze]

Hi Jim,

No reason why good dowels shouldn't last.
The chairs I remember from WWll were all held together with dowels.
As long as you clean up the joint area, use a good glue, and keep it in the cramps long enough to cure properly. Animal glue, as I said, is best for the benefit of future restorers, but it's a matter for you. )

Best of luck.
John

 

[Benchwayze]

Or a lenght of rope and a stick. loop round the chair stick the stick in and twist.

That would work. I call it a Spanish Windlass.
John :wink:

 

[woodbloke]

I have a set of oak wartime utility chairs which I would like to repair. They've been in my family for about 40 years, my parents having bought them at an auction when first married.

Apparently I'm not the first person to attempt repairs - holding them together there is a mixture of loose (as in wobbly) M&T joints, dowels, iron brackets and nails. I'd like to get away from using brackets and nails if possible.

I think the M&T joints are beyond being pared back and patched up with shavings as I've seen suggested on other threads, so I was thinking of using some sort of glue/epoxy to fill the gaps. Where dowels have been used in previous repairs and worked loose I was thinking of pulling or drilling them out and replacing with thicker ones.

I am a relative beginner in this type of work, so could I ask for suggestions for methods and products to use for filling the loose M&T's (West system epoxy for example?), and general advice about how I might go about making repairs that will look ok and be safe/strong?

Many thanks in advance,
Jim

Chairs like this that have taken a hammering through daily use over many generations can be difficult to repair. Not only are the joints loose, but held together with an odd assortment of ironmongery which compounds the issue. Further, as the joints have gradually come apart over the years, what will have happened is that there will have been a gradual ingress of dirt and muck so that any fresh glue applied to the area won't be sticking to sound wood, but a greasy, dirty surface and as such will soon come apart again.
I'd dismantle the chairs and chop away all the old material in both parts of the joints (if needed) and then fill with inserts of hardwood to create a flush new surface. Dowelling is probably the best way to make the joints, combined with a hefty corner bracket glued and screwed on the inside.
John has suggested hide glue... there's nothing wrong with that and is the preferred adhesive for antique repairs, but if you're not used to using the stuff, it can be a bit of a learning curve! I'd stick to the tried and tested PVA glue, which, being slightly flexible when set, might be a better option. PVA is certainly better for new chair work because of this feature.
The main issue is that you have to make sure that the repairs are being effected on clean, grease free timber so that the actual method of construction is really up to you...I've suggested dowels but you could use loose tenons or even a Domino if you have one. I don't by the way :-({|= as others will tell you hereabouts :lol: - Rob

 

[jt]

Thanks again for all the replies and advice - hopefully one day I will be in the position to offer advice on the forums as well as ask for help.

I now have a copy of Charles Hayward's restoration book on order - I will update this thread with progress photos once I make a start on the restorations, hopefully it will help someone else in the future (if only as a "how not to do it" guide (homer)

 

[Benchwayze]

Thanks again for all the replies and advice - hopefully one day I will be in the position to offer advice on the forums as well as ask for help.

I now have a copy of Charles Hayward's restoration book on order - I will update this thread with progress photos once I make a start on the restorations, hopefully it will help someone else in the future (if only as a "how not to do it" guide (homer)

Jt,

If you are seriously thinking about getting into woodworking, you could do worse than look at other books by CHH... There are quite a few. And in the interests of fair trade I suppose I should say there are other authors of course! :lol:
But CHH is one of my 'heroes'.

Regards
John

 

[jt]

Funny you should say that - while looking for the restoration book on Amazon I found several other books by CH and also ordered the Toymaking and Woodworking ones (priced at 50p and 1p + P&P!). I'm sure they will sit nicely on the shelf next to my Underhill, Schwarz & Charlesworth books.

I'm already well down the woodworking slope, tool and book rich, talent poor

 

[woodbloke]

...tool and book rich

Without fotographic evidence to back up that claim, it's going to fall on stoney ground around here! :lol: :lol: - Rob

 

[Benchwayze]

Then they couldn't be in better company, each and every one of those authors!

Regards
John

 

[jt]

...tool and book rich

Without fotographic evidence to back up that claim, it's going to fall on stoney ground around here! :lol: :lol: - Rob

Oh go on then (assuming you don't want photos of the books)

... and to get back on topic a couple of chair photos. This is one of the better ones but you can see where the joins are loose, and an example of the ironmongery repairs.

cheers
Jim

 

[Matt@]

what I would do

1. remove metal brackets, corner blocks and seat.
2. knock complete back frame off side rails
3. observe whether dowel holes/ dowels are parallel with side rail and go into uprights at an angle or are at an angle into the end of the side rails - this is important
4. see if any of the dowels are loose - they often are and if so pull them out or reglue them if good nick and tight in holes.
5. if dowels are broken off, cut end flush and drill down the middle of the dowel with very small drill bit then increase size of drill bit until you have the very thin outer edge of the original dowel left in the hole then chip this away until the hole is clear. This gaurentees you will use exactly the same hole position. If you try drilling the dowel out in one go the bit will prob wander.
6. if dowel not broken - see how loose or tight it is in the opposing hole - if tight then just reuse, if too loose remove as above
7 to replace any dowels use slightly over sized dowels either beech serated or handwood with couple of grooves cut down the length to let the glue out when cramping. Ideally use forstner bit to drill not twist bit as the latter can grab as you drill and shatter the hole.
8 double check the new dowels dont bottom out in the holes before frame is clamped tight (leave clearance about 3 or 4 mm.
9 clean all old glue away from existing dowels and joint faces and rough up
10. dont use scotch glue unless you are used to it and if you do use it do it in the conservatory when its baking hot as this stuff goes off as soon as it leaves the gluepot. I would use PVA as a long open time. also it has some give. Cascamite no good as it has no give.
11. Use stout F clamps or sash cramps to clamp up with claming blocks - dont use ropes and straps, you wont get enough direct pressure to the joints.

The main point to watch with all this is make sure dowels dont bottom out and that they have a groove or grooves along their length to allow surplus glue to escape as you cramp up otherwise the glue will create a vacumn in the joint and you'll be stuffed

thats it!

 

[mickthetree]

Hi JT

Hayward is great. I too have a number of his books purchased cheap at car boots, bric a brac shops etc.

Feel free to post some pictures of the repairs that need doing, the clearer the better, then the members can give you some more detailed advice.

Good luck with it all.

Paul

 

[jt]

Thanks again for the further comprehensive advice - I feel a lot less nervous about undertaking these repairs after all this input from more experienced folk.

I'm just waiting for the Hayward book & a Woden dowelling jig to arrive (also a pair of wooden side rebate planes I "accidentally" bid on whislt looking for the jig - obviously essential for this job :lol: ). Hopefully they'll all arrive by the weekend when I hope to make a start in earnest, more pictures to follow as things progress.

cheers
Jim