cartridge filter (again) for 1.5 hp dust extractor

[mqbernardo]

Hi all - sorry for coming up with this beaten-up topic again.
After some online help (here and on other fora) I´m almost decided that i´ll need the bigger 1.5hp dust collector type over the <= 1 hp for my Jet 10-20 drum sander, and i´d like a fine cartridge filter to go with it, so i can use the drum-sander in an amenable guilt-free state.
As dust extractors go, i´ve thought of going with (but am open to other suggestions) axi´s FMBC300 model (http://www.axminster.co.uk/axminster-ho ... rod886594/ - why can´t they just call their products simpler names?), but the filter axminster provides for it will only filter particles down to 5 microns (not much of an improvement there), so i´d like to hear your recommendations for a fine (1 micron or less) cartridge filters to go with this (or similar) kind of extractor. I´ve looked at this popular RBindustrial offering, but i guess it should be too small to go with the bigger 1.5hp extractors - it´s just to good (aka cheap) to be true!

as always, any help is appreciated. and sorry for having two threads open at the same time - got to take advantage of it while my wife doesn´t allocate the funds to wiser endeavors.

thanks in advance,
Miguel.

 

[mqbernardo]

edited the title for clarity.

 

[RogerS]

No, it isn't too small. It's what I have on my Axi 2200 chip collector here.

 

[Aled Dafis]

This is probably what you want, but it's expensive!!!

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Fine-Wood...ies_Carpentry_Woodwork_ET&hash=item53e14c886f

 

[RogerS]

And a bit of 4 x 2 works just as well !! Saves £300 + :lol:

 

[beech1948]

I have looked at these myself a few times as an addition to the cyclone I'm building but am put off by the price.

In Canada/US these priced at £200 ish each and I just will not pay a rip off price in the UK. So I'm looking at importing a couple for my own use. I have hit a few issues of getting a supplier to ship here from the Can/US but hope to solve that soon.

Meanwhile I have 2x Record DX4000s chosen because they are the dustbin style which does not allow dust to exit and which can filter down to below 3 microns. I was told that the smallest average size wood dust particle size is 2.5 microns.

To one of the Records I have added a Thien Separator http://www.jpthien.com/cy.htm. I use this with my larger sanders, a Jet sander and my router table. This has been very successful and seems to retain fine dust very well. I am looking for some HEPA filters for the Record DC.

The second Record is used for the table saw/bandsaw/planer-thicknesser. I may add a Thien separator to it but I may also add a 3hp cyclone unit with the Torit filter. Its all about price/value and efficiency.

Al

 

[RogerS]

Came across this interesting chart which seems to back up Beech's figures...if anything the graph suggests the average is even larger than 2.5

Having said that I would still prefer to filter down as low as possible simply due to human biology...it's the really tiny stuff that goes deep down into the lungs and stays there that causes the problems.

 

[beech1948]

RogerS,

I did'nt want to really go into all of the research as that often kicks off an arguement.

My research lead to the US web site of OSHA which is a bit like H&S here but has a much bigger budget. They have done much research into particle sizes and those of wood as well as MDF and I feel they have set the standard for the world at present.

A good Google search would be " particle size of wood dust" and then start looking.

Wood dust seems to be 99% in the range 2.3 and up with an average size of 3.1 microns for the smaller sizes. This is for hardwoods and surprisingly softwoods.

MDF is a different problem but again the 99% confidence level is reached at 2.1 microns. The smaller stuff is often removed as well due to weak electrostatic attraction to slightly larger particles.

Where to draw the line is the issue. To remove all particles is probably possible but would be very expensive at at hobby level certainly over the £25,000 line. To remove 99% of particles down to 2.5 microns seems possible but requires some out of the box thinking or a cyclone+ exhaust filters which will not fit in everyone's workshop or budget.

Cyclone Central has come up with a good solution for £89 and some MDF supports. Really the only remaining issues are the filtration of the exhaust air from the cyclone and we are back to the very expensive Torit style filters.

Al

 

[mqbernardo]

nice, this thread didn´t die as it seemed it would - thanks for the replies guys!

hey, Roger - if i may ask - do you know if the filter area of the smaller torrit filter (around .870 m2 if i got the maths right, which seldom happens ) restricts the airflow of the extractor? the FMBC is around 2000 m3/hr, so it´s quite a lot - but i don´t know about the 2200 (i suppose it is similar to the FMBC). SO basically, what i´m asking is: do you still get good suction with the small cartridge filter added?

Al, i talked to wynn environmental to order one of their filters from the US and the shipping alone was quoted at almost 500 USD (!!!!!!). i found such a high value strange, didn´t order it in the end. Do you by any chance know if the smaller records you have move enough air volume to be of use as extractors for a drum sander?

Thanks again,
Miguel.

- edited for typos -

 

[RogerS]

.....
hey, Roger - if i may ask - do you know if the filter area of the smaller torrit filter (around .870 m2 if i got the maths right, which seldom happens ) restricts the airflow of the extractor? the FMBC is around 2000 m3/hr, so it´s quite a lot - but i don´t know about the 2200 (i suppose it is similar to the FMBC). SO basically, what i´m asking is: do you still get good suction with the small cartridge filter added?
....

I've not really noticed much reduction, to be honest. Where you do start to see loss of suction is when the cartridge starts to 'blind' ...ie fill up with dust. I give the cartridge a good bash when I put a new bag on. That way the dust goes to the bottom of the bag, then all it is used for is chippings and so the bag is very acceptable to the local stables. I use it on my Sedgwick planer/thicknesser and on my spindle moulder and the bag fills up which is good enough for me!

I did play around with a handheld manometer. You get a really good idea as to how much the cartridge is getting blinded. I stick one end of the manometer into the bottom bag sealed with a bit of silicon. The other end is free to air. Fire up the extractor and with a new filter there should be zero pressure drop (which actually answers your original question in a roundabout way). There was negligible pressure drop. As the cartridge gets blinded then the drop increases.

Out of curiosity I weighed a new cartridge (5kg) and an old one. (9kg) That's a hell of a lot of dust not going into the room.

More in this thread here post736003.html?hilit=pressure%20drop#p736003

 

[RogerS]

One other thing that no-one seems to comment much on is the benefit of using one of those recirculating filters like this one..

I have a homemade one and you can see the front of the filter go brown as it sucks dust out of the air.

 

[beech1948]

Miguel,

Sorry I can't answer you question I have never used a Jet drum sander.

If you look here you might see something useful. My Record DX4000 have 2x1hp motors and can pull about 1600m3 per hour which I think might be enough.

I am considering building a home made hang from the ceiling air filter box but am too busy to have time to start.

Al

 

[mqbernardo]

Thanks for the replies (again) guys - they've been invaluable help.

As for air filters I've read somewhere that the ceiling mounted ones while filtering some dust particles they also help suspend at your head level the particles that they're not filtering, thanks to the air circulation they induce near the ceiling - I can't confirm or dismiss the info, though. I think I'll order one of those but use it at waist level.

Thanks,
Miguel.

 

[RogerS]

Miguel...I don't know what other machines you have nor the amount of woodworking you do nor how easy it is to get rid of dust and chippings. If it helps you (and maybe others) here is a brief history of my dust/chip extraction and the reasoning behind the choices.

Starting out - hobbyist. Axminster 6" planer/Delta thicknesser/Ryobi router in table

Chip/dust extraction - an Earlex type vacuum cleaner....bit like a big Henry. Worked well..sucked up everything but the drum got filled up quickly and the internal filter got blinded quickly with all the fine dust.

Next phase ... bought a small ClearVue cyclone that emptied into an intermediate box...powered by the same vacuum cleaner...kept the dust out of the vacuum filter but box still got filled up too quickly.

Next phase....more trade use .... sold the Axminster planer. Bought a Sedgwick MB planer/thickesser and a spindle moulder. Bought the Axminster 2200 chip extractor. Plumbed up everything with flexible hose and blast gates. A 'wander' hose was dragged round a lot of the machines as and when I used them. Worked well.

But as the voiume of woodworking increased so too did the number of bags filled and getting rid of them was a problem. If I used the same extractor for all the machines then there was too much dust in among the chippings that the local stables wouldn't take them.

Made worse by buying a Jet 22-44 Oscillating drum sander. So time for a re-think. I realised that two machines only generated chips and little dust....the planer/thicknesser and the spindle moulder. So I dedicated the Axi 2200 to just those two. Worked a treat. Stables happy. I'm happy and by minimising the dust going into the Axi 2200 meant that cartridge changes were much less frequently required.

The dust generators ---ie the table saw, the Jet drum sander, the Axminster large linisher were all connected to a CamVac triple filtered twin motor unit that I bought off eBay. Brilliant choice. Just dust goes into that and when it's full, on goes the mask and it gets emptied into a plastic sack for the binmen.

Hope that helps

 

[mqbernardo]

Roger, thanks for your description. I do not intend to give it much use, not at any "trade" level by fair - maybe a slow hobby, weekend warrior level. I am an amateur guitar builder, i´ll use it connected to a Jet 10-20 drum sander, which i use to rough thickness guitars tops (spruce), and backs&sides (rosewood and cypress) and not much more. I don´t have any chip producing machines. My plan would be to somewhere in the near future upgrade the system with a cyclone or a separator of some sort.

The reason why i´m planning on going with a chip extractor system (as opposed to a shop vac) is because of Bill Pentz info, which states (roughly) that one needs to move bigger volumes of air/second for smaller dust particles - the kind you get with a sander. I´m intrigued by your use of a smaller dust extractor (is it a HPLV?) with your 22-44 - but if it works, hey, it works! i always take advice from others more experienced than me. In fact, now that i think of it, i think i remember a conversation i had with Phil Thien some time ago where he said that he used a small drum sander connected to a home vac with his separator in between, and it worked OK. food for thought.

 

[RogerS]

Miguel...the other factor to consider is the outlet size on your machine. On my Jet it is 4" and a small vacuum will struggle to draw enough air. But the Camvac is a different beast altogether and it's airflow is well up there and eminently suitable for the drum sander. I would seriously suggest that you consider something like the Camvac.

 

[mqbernardo]

well, i´m already doing that - thanks for the info. is ebay a good source for camvac?

now that i remember, another factor for going with the HVLP extractors was that JET asked for at least 450 CFM for my model and the models like the camvac (or record) are usually in the 200-300 CFM.

 

[RogerS]

My Jet is the big brother to yours. I have the GV386 Camvac - twin motor - and it works just fine.

 

[Matt2203]

Roger S, do you find that filter performs we'll compared to the original floppy bag? I have a SIP 2hp dust collector and I'm looking for a better canister type filter but there don't seem to be many affordable options here in the UK.. .. Thanks in advance

 

[user22161]

Roger S, do you find that filter performs we'll compared to the original floppy bag? I have a SIP 2hp dust collector and I'm looking for a better canister type filter but there don't seem to be many affordable options here in the UK.. .. Thanks in advance

I've also been pricing the fine dust filters. I have a Charnwood W691 which they offer with or without the fine canister filter at £90 difference in price but, if the filter is bought after, it's £169 + delivery!!! It's a bit cheaper including delivery via Poolwood. Surprised I can't find them on any Chinese sites.