cabinet pitch - hand planes

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nabs

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I have a Thomas Turner smoother that is stamped "cabinet" on the back. I had assumed this was a reference to the pitch of the bed, which measures 52 degrees, but the only references I can find to this angle in books call it "York" pitch.

The consensus on t'internet is that "cabinet" = 60 degrees. Does the "cabinet" stamp on this plane mean something else?

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nabs; the following info should be helpful.

The historic name for the 45º bed angle is common pitch. A bit higher (50º, called "York pitch") is used in some bench planes for hardwood and is usual for rabbet or grooving planes. Middle pitch (55º) and half pitch or cabinet pitch (60º) are frequent in molding planes for soft and hardwood respectively.
http://homepages.sover.net/~nichael/nlc ... /caop.html
 
What answer do you get if you measure the angle of the upper surface of the iron? (Without the cap iron, of course.)
I think it may be the standard Cabinet pitch once a tapered iron is in place.
It makes sense, as it's the position of the metal that makes a difference to the cut.
 
A tapered iron usually has less then 1 degree of taper. So that isn't going to make up for an 18 degree difference.

You probably shouldn't read to much into old advertisement paroles. My guess is it just means that the plane is especially made for cabinetmakers instead of carpenters.
 
I agree with Corneel; its unlikely the mark has any connection with the pitch of the plane. But you have to ask the question as to why someone would go to the cost of having a stamp made up to specifically identify its use from any other trade. Its unlikely that Carpenters, or Joiners, would have shared the same workshop as a Cabinet Maker. Trades within the U.K, no different to Australia, were strongly influenced by their associated union, and generally little allowances were made to work outside your trade description. As a result, certainly throughout the 20th century, most employers enrolled their apprentices into a dual certification of Carpenter & Joiner, as this added much more in versatility to the work that could be undertaken. Bearing in mind that there has traditionally always been a close association between the work undertaken by a Carpenter, and a Joiners role, within the building trade. Much closer in association than that of a Cabinet Maker, who would in most cases have been called upon to complete his service as an independent contractor. As to the likelihood of stamps credentials, its quite possible the owners surname was CABINET. ( possibly French, where the surname is much more in common use, with the T pronounced silent, just like the French wine CABERNET).

Its of interest to note that a double iron was being used at York Pitch as early as 1880. One tends to consider that a double iron was restricted to common pitch only. It does pose an interesting question over what time period the practice of setting the cap iron within a close tolerance of O.5MM was deemed necessary to combat tear out.
 
AndyT":1ubtmjbj said:
What answer do you get if you measure the angle of the upper surface of the iron? (Without the cap iron, of course.)
I think it may be the standard Cabinet pitch once a tapered iron is in place.
It makes sense, as it's the position of the metal that makes a difference to the cut.

Good point Andy - the taper on the iron is 1 degree, so allowing for my cack-handed measuring we can call the effective pitch 50

my own theory, for which I have no evidence whatsoever, is that "cabinet pitch" referred to any pitch greater than common pitch (45 degrees).

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Here's one of my planes. It's a large round by Varvill of York, modified by a previous owner, but the point of interest is that it has a similar, curved CABINET mark.
I think this makes it likely that the word is indicative of a high pitched plane and that it's not an owner's name.
This particular plane is skewed as well, which would reduce the effective angle. By my measurements it's about 63°.

IMG_20161127_142425946_zps4kpl7p1j_edit_1480256925577_zpsonbsyitj.jpg


IMG_20161127_142457718_zpsng8loma8.jpg
 
A 60 degree double iron plane would be very unusual. I even doubt many 60 degree single iron planes ever existed, too much like a scraper. The designations york, middle, cabinet pitch are used for moulding planes, not so much for bench planes.
 
I think Nick has shown us an actual rare, bench smoother with a steeply pitched blade.
Yes, cabinet pitch is fairly common on hollows and rounds, but here is some evidence that it was available on a smoothing plane.

As for the exact angle, Peter Young in his book about John Green notes that cabinet pitch is 'usually referred to as being at 60 degrees but can be much higher at around 68 to 70 degrees.' He has made a close study of more planes than I ever will and I defer to his expertise.

I'm intrigued that the two marks are both curved in the same way. I wonder if that is coincidence or if there is a connection?

Has anyone else got a plane marked like these two?
 
Once I found an image on Jim Bodes website, the dealer in the US, with a very highly pitched small smoother. Somewehere 55-60 degrees was my best guess from the picture. But they are rare as hens teeth. And certainly no double iron ones.

The mark you showed has nearly the same N as the one from nick, but it is pressed a little deeper into the wood. It would be fun to meassure both marks and see if they are the same.
 
Yeah, that statement was too strong. York pitch is not uncommon in bench planes. But while the higher pitches are fairly common in molding planes, they are super rare in bench planes. Did they all get used up or didn't they exist to start with?

Strange is also that the pitch is never mentioned in old tool catalogs. Neither for moulding nor bench planes.
 
Corneel":btb9qscx said:
Strange is also that the pitch is never mentioned in old tool catalogs. Neither for moulding nor bench planes.

.. it does get a mention in the 1884 Howarth catalogue (below). Perhaps this is tenuous evidence for the term simply being used - at least at one point in time - to distinguish the pitch used for softwoods from other steeper pitches?

0wmr-Lbcq5hp8djsTLsxFk9wa0qXNwepyPQ01P4G0ffhedyn7qxCjg
 
worn thumbs":hmjy3mgq said:
Does anybody know whether the planes with cabinet pitch would have had narrower mouths?

I've read tips of applying shims at the top of the bed to lean the iron forward
a little, such that the iron pivots on the bevel arris, and opens the mouth just a bit.

This would only be needed if the planes were being shipped with (very) tight mouths.

The tips are implicitly for "normal" planes.

So (by deduction) the answer to your question is "no".

BugBear
 
nabs":2s5piwcf said:
Corneel":2s5piwcf said:
Strange is also that the pitch is never mentioned in old tool catalogs. Neither for moulding nor bench planes.

.. it does get a mention in the 1884 Howarth catalogue (below). Perhaps this is tenuous evidence for the term simply being used - at least at one point in time - to distinguish the pitch used for softwoods from other steeper pitches?

0wmr-Lbcq5hp8djsTLsxFk9wa0qXNwepyPQ01P4G0ffhedyn7qxCjg

Although softwoods permit a smaller sharpening angle, they also yield more before being cut and thus require a larger clearance angle. Pitch (clearance plus sharpness) requirement changes little. The verdict of history as well as of recent experiments (e.g., James Krenov) is that a pitch of 45º or slightly more is best for bench planes. The historic name for the 45º bed angle is common pitch. A bit higher (50º, called "York pitch") is used in some bench planes for hardwood and is usual for rabbet or grooving planes. Middle pitch (55º) and half pitch or cabinet pitch (60º) are frequent in molding planes for soft and hardwood respectively. Angles of less than 45º are referred to as low angle or extra pitch, and are seen in some types of planes for softwood and for cutting end grain. It is preferred by the Japanese, who use a rather different planing style.
http://homepages.sover.net/~nichael/nlc ... /caop.html
 
nabs":95y3jjg6 said:
Corneel":95y3jjg6 said:
Strange is also that the pitch is never mentioned in old tool catalogs. Neither for moulding nor bench planes.

.. it does get a mention in the 1884 Howarth catalogue (below). Perhaps this is tenuous evidence for the term simply being used - at least at one point in time - to distinguish the pitch used for softwoods from other steeper pitches?

0wmr-Lbcq5hp8djsTLsxFk9wa0qXNwepyPQ01P4G0ffhedyn7qxCjg


Thanks for that Nick. Hadn't seen something like that before. Usually the catalogs list every possible variation of moulding profile, bench plane size, type of irons, wood choice and what not else. But I hadn't seen a listing of the various types of pitch yet. Possibly something that was taken for granted back then.
 
One thing that comes out of this discussion is the simple observation that cabinet pitch is suitable for cabinet makers, who would have been working hardwoods and sometimes difficult hardwoods for which a higher pitch was useful. So the name was informative. Common pitch was the default, for joiners and any other work in mild woods.

But why "York pitch"?

Certainly, York was an important centre of plane making, but as far as I am aware, York plane makers made any pitch angle their customers wanted. Peter Young confirms this but offers no suggestion that York Pitch started in York.

It's probably an unanswerable question.
 
AndyT":1aoxwrt5 said:
But why "York pitch"?

Certainly, York was an important centre of plane making, but as far as I am aware, York plane makers made any pitch angle their customers wanted. Peter Young confirms this but offers no suggestion that York Pitch started in York.

It's probably an unanswerable question.

Same reason that a full-pitched delivery in cricket is called a 'Yorker' .................. OK, maybe not!

Couple of interesting things to come out of this. One is that moulding planes tended to be pitched differently to bench planes - though given that moulders are usually single-iron and bench planes double-iron, I can understand why. Also, most of my vintage moulders are pitched at 47.5 degrees.

Also - just in passing - has anybody ever come across a vintage jack plane at cabinet pitch (or higher pitch than 45 degrees)? Smoothers pitched high I can readily understand; maybe even try planes - but jacks?
 
The two jackplanes from the Seaton chest are 47.5 degrees. And if I remember correctly then most 17th/18th century Dutch planes were 50 degrees, also the jacks (roffel). But I have never touched one, so it's only hearsay.
 
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