Building Regs Approval

[kafkaian]

It's all very bemusing really. Do a job, don't get caught doing it for twelve months after completion and councils leave you alone to suffer the consequences of trying to sell your home without relevant approvals instead relying on the solicitors to inform buyers that caveat emptor might apply in certain instances for anything that's been done since 1985 without a certificate.

In my street DIYers have been putting in windows, replacing roofs and dividing rooms with sinks and extra wastes for years, all which now come under building regs requirements.

So if you have a rotten 1970's homemade window which is about to fall out, you can do repairs but can't do replacements unless you pay £70 for an inspector to come around and adjudicate in order to get the necessary certificate required since 2002. Similarly, Part P requires lengthy discussions and added costs that do more to deter improvements on old dodgy wiring than ensure regulations are met. (Oh but it's okay for a qualified incompetent to go around to my folks' home and put in the wrong rated bathroom lighting or wire new switches incorrectly during a Council funded initiative to save pensioners money on home improvements - don't make me laugh)

I'm about to consider reclaiming an outbuilding for use as a shower room but am wondering if it's all worth it. More money for the sparkies and inspectors who will probably tell me that the old earth bonding is inadequate and that will lead to another problem which will require approval and so on and so forth.

Is this a never ending gravy train for legislators and their friends or am I being a little cynical and should cough up and shut up?

 

[Woody Alan]

I will come out in sympathy with you, couldn't agree more. Mustn't say too much though or you may get political Are you suggesting if something is done before 1985 there is a get out clause?

Alan

 

[kafkaian]

I will come out in sympathy with you, couldn't agree more. Mustn't say too much though or you may get political Are you suggesting if something is done before 1985 there is a get out clause?

Alan

Well I think BRs should be there to protect people, and agree that improvements should be done to the highest standard, but when you've got no choice but to employ people with the appropriate 'qualifications' who in turn charge an arm and a leg and who are only available intermittently, I can only see things going underground.

As for the 1985 clause, well how do you prove it either way especially if its an internal job done say 10 years ago? it all seems a little grey and wooly to me.

 

[Fecn]

When I moved into my current place, the breaker box in the garage was lacking it's front cover. The 6" long copper bus-bar was live for anyone to touch - Natrurally, I replaced the breaker box with a new one... which I _think_ I'm allowed to do since I replaced like with like.

Does anyone know how much time, effort and money is required to qualify yourself as Part-P .. and how long the qualification lasts for. If we're talking about £100 and a two-day course, then I'll probably get myself qualified. I don't believe I need any training... I just want to sit the exam and get a pass mark.

 

[kafkaian]

Does anyone know how much time, effort and money is required to qualify yourself as Part-P ..

Well I'm seriously thinking about it

 

[wizer]

Does anyone know how much time, effort and money is required to qualify yourself as Part-P ..

Well I'm seriously thinking about it

https://www.ukworkshop.co.uk/forums/view ... hp?t=16706

 

[kafkaian]

Thanks wizer, just responded to that thread

 

[davy_owen_88]

Similarly, Part P requires lengthy discussions and added costs that do more to deter improvements on old dodgy wiring than ensure regulations are met.

Sorry, but you are wrong. Have a read of the approved document and you will see that no notification, and hence no fee is required for the repair or replacement of any fixed wiring or fittings. So how that deters improvements I do not know.

I'm about to consider reclaiming an outbuilding for use as a shower room but am wondering if it's all worth it. More money for the sparkies and inspectors who will probably tell me that the old earth bonding is inadequate and that will lead to another problem which will require approval and so on and so forth.

Firstly, the upgrading of main bonding, main earthing or supplementary bonding conductors is not notifiable work so you could do it yourself. I also think it is extremely foolish that you would question the advice of a qualfied person especially when it concerns a vital safety feature of your electrical installation.

If you are using an electrician who is a member of a self certification scheme there is no chance of 'another problem which will require approval' as the electrician approves himself by nature of the fact he has proved that he/she is competent and therefore doesn't need to go through the same channels as a DIY'er.

I'm also sorry that you think part P is making electricians any more money... but it's very common for disgruntled DIY'ers to complain about these things despite not really knowing anything about what they are complaining about.

[/rant]

 

[kafkaian]

Yes I was warned this would get political:

Sorry, but you are wrong. Have a read of the approved document and you will see that no notification, and hence no fee is required for the repair or replacement of any fixed wiring or fittings. So how that deters improvements I do not know.

Firstly, if you take things out of context then yes I am wrong, but when you go into some of the homes I go into and see some of the dodgy wiring in kitchen and bathrooms then yes, for some, making essential improvements through Part P restrictions might indeed be a deterrent.

Firstly, the upgrading of main bonding, main earthing or supplementary bonding conductors is not notifiable work so you could do it yourself.

Sorry but my council has stated that bonding in Part P areas IS notifiable

I also think it is extremely foolish that you would question the advice of a qualfied person especially when it concerns a vital safety feature of your electrical installation.

I'm a qualified Electronics/Electrical Engineer (University) and member of IEEE. 'Foolish' is not questioning the validity of advice from people, so called qualified, who from my experience have known very little about electrical engineering principles. That's not to accuse the majority of very good electricians but there is a problem from my personal experiences (see below)

If you are using an electrician who is a member of a self certification scheme there is no chance of 'another problem which will require approval' as the electrician approves himself by nature of the fact he has proved that he/she is competent and therefore doesn't need to go through the same channels as a DIY'er.

Sorry, I know at least two people who have had work done where advice was questionable.

I'm also sorry that you think part P is making electricians any more money... but it's very common for disgruntled DIY'ers to complain about these things despite not really knowing anything about what they are complaining about.

I think that abuse deserves the contempt it deserves. Frankly, I'm not in the habit of taking the word of an industry (like most) that has a vested interest in the advice it gives and was inferring the point that whilst work has to be at the highest standards attributed to the majority of electricians, the 'advice' given can often be hidden behind the jargon and 'secrecy' surrounding interpretable standards.

I will give you an example, my brother was recently quoted for a socket in an outbuilding but was told that his home would need re-bonding. Having failed upon questioning as to an adequate reason why his house needed re-bonding, an air of suspicion was created.

Similarly, so called qualified electricians working for the council incorrectly wired two wall switches in my parent's home and had to be called back to sort it out. Not only that, they wired up an existing alarm unit assuming the leads that led from the unit were correctly wired only after they incorrectly wired up to a different unit, such that my parents were unalarmed, and thus uninsured, for several days before someone came back to rectify the problem. And they had the gall to certify the work as competent.

Then you have people saying that the work carried out wasn't even inspected properly adding to the notion that this has nothing to do with standards and more to do with increasing the profits of the 'intended' beneficiaries.

I have just had (this morning) a council officer tell me that these regulations were bought for the financial benefit of electricians and builders per se as much as increasing safety standards. So what are people supposed to assume?

Sorry if I'm a little cynical for your taste, but you shouldn't take things personally.

 

[davy_owen_88]

If work is done to such a standard that it makes the improvement of it a deterrent then god help. :lol: If the work was done by someone deemed competent then they should be named and shamed and this can be done through their registered body.

In my opinion your council is trying you on. As I posted in the thread below this one, many councils will try to turn simple non-notifiable jobs into notifiable ones to get money out of you, just like they will try to charge you the extra expense of contracting out the work when it is clearly their responsibility.

Whilst the electrician couldn't give your brother a valid reason for the need to upgrade the bonding I can. It is a requirement of BS7671 that before any work is carried out, earthing and bonding must be inspected and where necessary up to current standards. If the householder refuses then no work can be carried out.

I can not, and will not argue with you about your point regarding council electricians. It is a well known fact that work carried out by council electricians is usually of a water-poor standard. They use the cheapest materials possible with the cheapest labour and it shows. :lol:

I apologise if you considered the last paragraph of my post to be abusive. I just hear the same 'part-p bashing' day in day out and it gets very old. The simple fact is, electricians didn't want part P, neither are they getting rich from it. The majority of complaints regarding part P is down to diy'ers not understanding what is notifiable and what is not and made worse by the monkeys sitting behind desks who have no idea what they are talking about when their advice is sought.

 

[kafkaian]

If work is done to such a standard that it makes the improvement of it a deterrent then god help. :lol: If the work was done by someone deemed competent then they should be named and shamed and this can be done through their registered body.

In my opinion your council is trying you on. As I posted in the thread below this one, many councils will try to turn simple non-notifiable jobs into notifiable ones to get money out of you, just like they will try to charge you the extra expense of contracting out the work when it is clearly their responsibility.

Whilst the electrician couldn't give your brother a valid reason for the need to upgrade the bonding I can. It is a requirement of BS7671 that before any work is carried out, earthing and bonding must be inspected and where necessary up to current standards. If the householder refuses then no work can be carried out.

I can not, and will not argue with you about your point regarding council electricians. It is a well known fact that work carried out by council electricians is usually of a water-poor standard. They use the cheapest materials possible with the cheapest labour and it shows. :lol:

I apologise if you considered the last paragraph of my post to be abusive. I just hear the same 'part-p bashing' day in day out and it gets very old. The simple fact is, electricians didn't want part P, neither are they getting rich from it. The majority of complaints regarding part P is down to diy'ers not understanding what is notifiable and what is not and made worse by the monkeys sitting behind desks who have no idea what they are talking about when their advice is sought.

I am glad we have reached a more amicable common ground then It really gets on my wick that councils often create a mystery to unnerve all parties into a state of absolute inertia. I've telephoned my council up about all sorts of things and following their advice (pre-Internet clarity) and have probably ended up with some BR overkill and others that'll require regularisation.

But who in the end has to pay; the worry, the expense? The home owner who, in the main, are law abiding citizens trying to do things correctly.

In the end, I just got all the BRs downloaded and try to interpret the best I can.

 

[kafkaian]

Addendum - I dread to think what life is like for those who don't consider and read the regulatory restrictions. I'm sure my neighbour ignored; windows (2002), new use and conversion of room to bathroom (1984), new roof and window (????) before he was repossessed and kicked out of his home. The Bradford and Bingley still managed to sell the house at the going rate though despite the caveats :?

 

[Fecn]

All if the electricians I know are not enamoured with Part-P - It seems that every kitchen fitter or plumber who's done the tests now thinks that they're electricians.

I don't blame the electrical industry for part-p - but I'm of the opinion that I'm smart enough to learn anything given enough time and effort. If someone else can qualify as Part-P then so can I. Why should I pay someone else for doing work I'm perfectly capable of doing myself.

It seems that the Part-P qualification is all geared towards companies, and against anyone who doesn't work as an electrician for a living becomming qualified. I worked 2 summers as an electricians mate, and spent 4 years doing an EE degree, and now I'm not qualified

 

[davy_owen_88]

It seems that the Part-P qualification is all geared towards companies, and against anyone who doesn't work as an electrician for a living becomming qualified. I worked 2 summers as an electricians mate, and spent 4 years doing an EE degree, and now I'm not qualified

Because what's the point of becoming qualified to do a couple of one off jobs? You wouldn't train for years to be a pilot so you could fly yourself on holidays, you wouldn't train to be a dentist so you could check your own teeth every 6 months so why train to be an electrician for the odd occasion where you need to do notifiable work?

If you want to do notifiable work yourself you just have to notify your BCO, it is so much cheaper than registering with a self certification scheme that I can't believe anyone would even consider it unless they needed to self certify on a regular basis (i.e at least once a week). You need to own your own test equipment, £2million PL insurance, pass C&G 2381, get 2 jobs inspected, have yearly check-ups, keep your meters calibrated, offer a guarantee, go on update courses etc etc.

And no offence to those of you with other electrical qualifications, but being a domestic electrician isn't all about being able to match up the colours to the correct terminals. There are so many factors that most people don't even think they need to consider (as shown on the 16A help thread the other day). It is knowing these things so that you don't make a mistake that you won't know you made until someone dies that counts.

 

[kafkaian]

I suppose ultimately, the new regs (not just Part. P) are geared away from individual home owner towards people of proven skills, which at the end of the day has just made the business a whole lot more expensive and thus financially prohibitive for some.

I mean look at windows; now you have to get vented k-glass specification to replace any single pane jobbies, when compromise pre-2002 uPVC DG would be far, far better than the original. If you don't pay £70 for BRA, you have to pay a qualified FENSA fitter to do the job who then informs the council.

I mean I can give an example of someone by me who has just fitted an old replacement Victorian door and single pane replacement sash windows - none of which will comply with the current standards. This is what I mean by everything going underground. Eventually I reckon we'll have a plethora of homes with several caveats.

 

[Fecn]

Because what's the point of becoming qualified to do a couple of one off jobs?

I passed a driving test, but never had any intention of becomming a long-distance lorry driver.

You need to own your own test equipment, £2million PL insurance, pass C&G 2381, get 2 jobs inspected, have yearly check-ups, keep your meters calibrated, offer a guarantee, go on update courses etc etc.

Got the first two (and can borrow any test gear I don't yet own)... haven't got the rest... 2 jobs inspected is the main stumbling block since I only ever worked in the building trade as holiday jobs.

And no offence to those of you with other electrical qualifications, but being a domestic electrician isn't all about being able to match up the colours to the correct terminals.

Never implied, or intended to imply that it was - Merely that if it was possible for you to learn something, then it's almost certainly possible for me to learn it too.

There are so many factors that most people don't even think they need to consider (as shown on the 16A help thread the other day).

That thread was a breath of fresh air - You clearly know your stuff, right down to the regs, and it's great to see solid advice being give out. Your posts about Earth conductance reminded me that I perhaps do not know quite as much as I thought I did. I know (or at least used to) my stuff too, but my stuff is more down at transistor/sub-micron level than electrocution level - The same principles apply, but I'd have read up on the specifics to see what the acceptable ranges for earth conductance are.. which, I'd like to think I would do before attempting anything major.

Anyway.. I think you've answered my question... How much/how long... The answer is prohibitive/6 months, which makes it totally not worth bothering. It's a shame that this is the case. When the Part-P competant person schemes were first announced, I rather hoped that they'd be like a driving test... Do an exam... do a practical test... You are now qualified to mess with your own home electrics until you're 70.

 

[davy_owen_88]

Got the first two (and can borrow any test gear I don't yet own)... haven't got the rest... 2 jobs inspected is the main stumbling block since I only ever worked in the building trade as holiday jobs.

Unfortunately borrowing or even hiring the test equipment wasn't good enough for them, you had to own them for yourself. I never did get a reason why though, but I assume it is due to the likelihood of the owners wanting them back and you being left without.

Getting two jobs inspected shouldn't be a problem. They only want one major and one minor job and the completed certificates to go with it. In your own house for example you could change your consumer unit (major) and wire up a new socket (minor) and as long as you filled out all the certificates correctly there shouldn't be any problems (the inspectors don't even care if you have notified the work as they are only there to confirm that you are competent and if you are you can just back-date the work anyway :wink

Never implied, or intended to imply that it was - Merely that if it was possible for you to learn something, then it's almost certainly possible for me to learn it too.

Apologies then, I often confuse various discussions from different forums and from different weeks/months :lol: Only the other day (I think) I heard 'it's only 3 wires, how difficult could it be' :roll:

I know (or at least used to) my stuff too, but my stuff is more down at transistor/sub-micron level than electrocution level - The same principles apply

That level of knowledge is way above me. For about 2 weeks after my physics A-levels I knew some of that stuff, but it has long since disappeared

Anyway.. I think you've answered my question... How much/how long... The answer is prohibitive/6 months, which makes it totally not worth bothering. It's a shame that this is the case. When the Part-P competant person schemes were first announced, I rather hoped that they'd be like a driving test... Do an exam... do a practical test... You are now qualified to mess with your own home electrics until you're 70.

If you really could justify the cost, then you could be done in 5 days (after the next course starts that is). Those quick courses aren't really designed for people who do electrical work as their main trade though and are more suited to plumbers, kitchen/bathroom fitters etc. Unfortunately, the crazy income figures posted in newspapers for electricians/plumbers has caused a huge surge of idiots who are doing the 5-day course and then trading as electricians. Unfortunately most lack the knowledge and experience to do the job properly and it is everyone's responsibility to weed out these wasters to prevent them doing any more shoddy work for the unsuspecting. I am quite sure that with a few days with your head in the 'brown bible' you would be a better electrician than the majority of the 'newbies' in the country, unfortunately, to do so will require a fair bit of cash which makes it unreasonable for the majority of people, including some electricians

 

[RogerS]

I mean look at windows; now you have to get vented k-glass specification to replace any single pane jobbies, when compromise pre-2002 uPVC DG would be far, far better than the original. If you don't pay £70 for BRA, you have to pay a qualified FENSA fitter to do the job who then informs the council.
.

Mmmmm... quite a few generalisations there but I catch your drift. It depends how much you want to chance it when it comes to sell your house. Having sold a couple of flats over the last two years, both purchasers' solicitors standard questions asked if any work had been done to the windows and if so where was the Fensa certificate. OK - they weren't quite clued up enough to understand the difference between repair and replacement but they were still asking.

Whether or not one agrees with fensa etc the fact of the matter is that, in the final analysis, it's your neck on the block when answering the questions! Any cute surveyor only has to look at the date stamp on the glass to see when it was installed and if they were really 'tech'd up' then they'd have that wee magic gadget that you point at the glass and it tells you if it's k glass.

On the other hand, you can sweet talk and reason with your Building Control officer and get agreement to loosen the required thermal efficiency for replacement windows to something that actually lets the light through rather than having to put in those horrible chunky ugly naff revolting windows that are being installed everywhere. So I can get to make my windows with very small petite glazing bars so I'm well pleased.

 

[kafkaian]

Mmmmm... quite a few generalisations there but I catch your drift.....

...something that actually lets the light through rather than having to put in those horrible chunky ugly naff revolting windows that are being installed everywhere. So I can get to make my windows with very small petite glazing bars so I'm well pleased.

If I do generalise it's only to portray the absolute bottom line when BR are not compromising enough, or instead not to give specific examples which might identify individuals. However, I'm pleased you have sorted your requirements through reasoned argument and a bit of gentle persuasion! However, that would never happen to me as I'm one for stirring the pot whenever council maladministration occurs.

That thread was a breath of fresh air - You clearly know your stuff, right down to the regs, and it's great to see solid advice being give out.

I wish all electricians who ply their trade on an often ignorant (fact not insult) and unsuspecting public were as knowledgeable as Davey

 

[haggisbasher]

I dont want to divert the thread but in the spirit of the OP I thought I'd mention that Part P doesnt apply up here in Scotland so you could move over the border, if your brave enough

On a more serious note its good to see that people care enough to actually know the regs exist. Its been my living for a long time and the vast majority of people ar oblivious to Building regs of any sort. they may be a pain or worse but trust me you dont want to live in a country without them. The things I have seen people do to buildings with a regulatory system in place makes me wonder what would go on without one.

cheers
Tom