breadboard ends.... some advice

[rafezetter]

I've been tasked with making a table top that will fold into three equal sections, out of very old floorboards. In order to help with any possible movement (just in case) I had thought to add breadboard ends, but I'm wondering if this is possible / adviseable when the wood planks are only 18-20mm thick.

The plan was the planks will be made of 115mm wide slats glued to over total width, then ripped down to 3 x 250mm and the board ends added after.

I can make the B/E from meranti I have in stock or I could get some other hardwood from the local wood reclaimers place.

The look requested is very much old farmhouse rustic as the client already has other bits of old exposed wood in the room.

(if you think 750mm wide is a tad too narrow, there is scope to make it wider - I'd welcome input on that as well)

Hinges will be fold flat bartop style.

 

[Racers]

That's very thin for a table top, can you beef up the edges with a extra board?
Then you could do a blind face tenon on the middle boards into the thicker breadboard end.


As to the width layout some plated on the floor/table and see if you have enough space.

Pete

 

[custard]

The "falls" on antique writing desks sometimes have what are effectively breadboard ends, and they're no thicker than your components. There's also the fact that many antique tables had breadboard ends that are actually thicker than the table top by an eighth or a quarter inch (flush on the top of course but overhanging below), so that's another option. Personally I think it's as much a style choice as a constructional decision, and nothing says "country furniture" quite like breadboard ends.

Regarding the table width, 750mm is a bit on the narrow side. Even trestle tables, which are often the narrowest table design, usually come in at over 850mm.

The "bible" for furniture design is "Human Dimension & Interior Space" by Panero and Zelnik. They recommend that the optimum "place setting zone" is about 760mm wide and 460mm deep with a central "shared access zone" of 230mm (so the table would be twice 460mm plus 230mm, or 1150mm in total), they also say the minimum is 610mm wide by 410mm deep, with a minimum shared access zone of 130mm, so the minimum table width is therefore 950mm.

Those dimensions hold true for tables up to about eight or ten seaters, if you go beyond that it's customary to increase the width of the table still further so it doesn't look too long and skinny. Consequently really big dining tables are often about 1500mm wide, they'd be wider still except for the fact that if you go much beyond 1500mm it becomes difficult to reach across to the centre and conversation across a really wide table starts to become difficult without raising your voice.

 

[novocaine]

thats an interesting read Custard, I'm off to find a copy of that book now. thanks.

 

[rafezetter]

Thanks for the advice. The issues I'm facing are that the table will fold into 3 and needs to be flat when folded to be placed into a recess on the front of a window bench seat (to be made).

I've asked if the table can be a bit wider to help with the construction process and the materials I have - but there is a limitation on the space where it's going to be set up. I had thought of thicker breadboard ends, but that would interfere with the folding flat part on two of the leaves.

Unfortunately I don't have direct access to the customer, but I'll forward your reply Custard onto the person who does.

From what I gather she is hoping it to be a six seater, but from your numbers it looks very much like this won't be realistic.... maybe she can be convinced to move the sofa for more space.

 

[Racers]

My first dining table was a reuleaux triangle https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reuleaux_triangle it gives you lots of space in a small area, you can have one point of the triangle almost touching a wall and still sit at both sides.
I made one with 3 fold down leaves from a sheet of veneered mdf as large as I could make it it took some working out.
You could seat 9 people round it and with the leaves folded down it was only 4 foot wide.
Possibly worth mocking up a small one in cardboard?

Pete

 

[Random Orbital Bob]

If space is a problem, how about a Fletcher Capstan

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ycoNS9fM4rg

 

[rafezetter]

Pete, don't think that would work with the design brief, but I've noted the shape for the future, ty.

Random - I've seen those, sublime; but I'd just annoy the other eaters opening and closing it constantly - less "stop playing with your food", more "stop playing with the table, dammit!"

 

[transatlantic]

If space is a problem, how about a Fletcher Capstan

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ycoNS9fM4rg

Who ever edited that video needs a smack

 

[Steve Maskery]

The one following shows how it is made. It's done on a Workmate!
Brilliant engineering.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uVbo7ycpkeI

 

[Woodmonkey]

There's also an interesting video on YouTube of someone showing how to make one of these from plywood

 

[Mr T]

I'm not sutre how your table will be hinged, but if you hinge on the side that is at right angles to the BBE's you may have problems with the differential movement disturbing the lline so the hinges foul on the protruding BBE. May be worth thimnking about at the design stage.

Chris

 

[rafezetter]

I'm not sutre how your table will be hinged, but if you hinge on the side that is at right angles to the BBE's you may have problems with the differential movement disturbing the lline so the hinges foul on the protruding BBE. May be worth thimnking about at the design stage.

Chris

Interesting; yes the hinges will be on the long sides - homemade (vertical iron bar with horizontal pins each side morticed into the wood, with movement slots for the bar), 3 per joint, but I had already thought because I'm making the hinges to add a 5mm gap between each adjoining long edge, though I could make it 10mm allowing each edge to move 5mm without really ruining the "rustic" effect, although the room it's going in is going to be warm centrally heated albeat close to the floor and a front outside wall. If anything I'm more concerned with the table doing odd things as it acclimitises and more than likely shrinks a bit.

Yes I brought the wood inside myself as soon as I knew we had the job, so it's been indoors for about a week in central heating, not a lot I know but better than nothing.

Keep the suggestions coming!

 

[Jacob]

Sitting at a large old oval gate leg table as we speak. Oak boards about 20mm thick and about 7" wide edge glued. No breadboard ends, just a thumb nail moulding struck on. No braces or anything though the middle section is buttoned to the aprons. This is very common in old tables.

Breadboard ends are fashionable at the mo but in the past were restricted to where needed e.g. breadboards, drawing boards, table tops in difficult environments (old kitchens etc).
I wouldn't bother myself, especially as the leaves are long and narrow and hinged on edge, and they are a bit of a faff with problems of their own.

What you are describing sounds a bit like a "butterfly" table - basically a gate leg table with a narrow central panel, but they usually have wider wings than your description. Your fold down wings can be any size, down to the floor.
I'd make the three section separately. If you try to rip from one glue-up you may find them all warping slightly as tension is released. Also it's much easier to make them separately.

PS there's an advantage in having narrow wings if they allow you to still get a chair and your knees under the edge. A 6" drop down leaf on a 30" high table still leaves room for sitting at it.

PPS from what you say about the client it could be a good idea to look closer at their design as there will very likely be a better way of doing it. It doesn't do to let the client design anything - you will get the blame if it's wrong, they'll take the credit if it's right.

PPPS just re read your post - are the leaves folding upwards? That sounds like a very bad idea to me and difficult to achieve. It's a back to the drawing board project!

 

[AndyT]

I'm not sure if I have visualised the requirement correctly, but have you considered a trestle table with a removable top? There are all sorts of options there for dismantling, folding and storing the parts in minimum space.

 

[rafezetter]

Jacob, yes it's a butterfly table, didn't know this design had a name but that fits with what I'm doing, 3 leaves 255mm wide + hinge gap.

I came up with the design (and there was me thinking I was being clever :roll: ), the client merely gave me maximum dimensions to work to, but the rest was for me to figure out. I decided on breadboard ends as I have no way to be sure what the boards will do in this centrally heated environment, especially being mostly flat sawn (I know, I know...) and she keeps it pretty warm, I'm keeping the wood indoors after each session working on them, hopefully it'll be enough. I had also decided to make each leaf seperately as I can control the visual aspect as well. I thought having uneven width sections on each leaf not to my taste, and although technically simpler to make the whole panel and rip, I was aware of the possible tension issue you mention after Sgian Dubh gave an extremely good post about that whole scenario some time ago.

AndyT - the problem is HOW the table is being stored, a new window bench seat is being made to accomodate 2 / 3 of the diners, set at normal seat height, and the table will be the false front for that bench seat, all other storage options were suggested and excluded.

I would have preferred to make the table leaves span the total depth of the false front, especially after what custard said about optimal dimensions, that would have produced a table about 1200 wide, but had I done so it would have meant the lady would have had to move the sofa to make room for the extra width and chairs on the room side, and she simply refused. Shortsighted, but hey that's her choice, confirmed in writing, so there's no comeback on me.

 

[Jacob]

Watch out - some clients are on a vanity trip and can be a complete pain in the arse.

 

[Eric The Viking]

Shortsighted, but hey that's her choice, confirmed in writing, so there's no comeback on me.

Take care: the "comeback" will simply be not paying you. As has been discussed here many times, getting money out of bad customers is difficult, time consuming, unpleasant and potentially expensive. Nowadays the debtor usually wins, not in the letter of any judgement but in the way it's applied (e.g. 600quid, paid off at 20/month).

Make sure you have adequate payment up front to cover at least materials and expenses. then if it goes wrong you can walk away only losing any profit.

The two other practical things I would do are:

1. Make a good template of the space you're working with, ideally in ply or thin MDF from lining paper or similar. Window alcoves, especially those with angled sides, are rarely consistent, and it seem to me you'll be needing every millimetre to store everything. In which case, you risk being hosed if, for example, the wrong sized battens are used to support the seat/window board, or it needs some additional vertical framing at the back. I speak from experience, having commissioned a bent radiator in the past for a bay window. I was jolly grateful the maker insisted on a paper template, as it turned out the window was far from symmetrical - the angles were different on the two sides!

2. Draw up the space, and your design, fully in SketchUp, so you can check everything fits and works together.

If this goes well, it'll be something to show future clients, so take a lot of photos, before, after and the making process, then pick the best ones. If using a camera phone, hold it against something like a dining chair so the camera is rock steady when it takes a picture. My old Samsung has a pretty reasonable camera, but only in the best lighting. At other times I have to take great care or the images are very soggy.

E.