Blade sale not allowed due to regs

[scrimper]

I have one of the original British made Startrite planers thicknessers it takes 2 x 10" blades one end of which is at a different angle to allow rebating. I have two sets and normally have them sharpened at a local saw service shop however I noticed that replacement blades are available on ebay at little more than what I pay to have a set sharpened.

On enquiring the seller informed me that it is no longer allowed to sell the original type blades due to regulations governing rebating on planers, is this correct? I have not heard of this.

I have not used the machine for rebating for many years anyway but I was interested to know about this regulation.

Second question, Are these planer blades that sell on ebay for around £14 per set fit for purpose or is it just better to pay to have my originals resharpened?

 

[lurker]

Not true
Usual case of Buck passing by blaming elf n safety

 

[Rorschach]

Sounds like a load of rubbish to me.

 

[tomatwark]

You can still rebate on older machines which were designed for it.

The HSE actually says the cutters must be correctly ground for carrying it out and the machine must be correctly guarded and if possible use a spindle moulder instead.

In 30 years plus in woodworking I have only rebated on a planer once though.

It is interesting that an Ebay seller told you this, as there are a lot of them who quite openly sell the old Whitehill style blocks and cutters for spindle moulders which HAVE been illegal since 2003.

 

[scrimper]

The actual words used were

Our information shows that your machine was designed to take the blades that you describe. However, it is no longer legal to sell those blades due to regulations governing rebating on planers.

 

[Peter Sefton]

The actual words used were

Our information shows that your machine was designed to take the blades that you describe. However, it is no longer legal to sell those blades due to regulations governing rebating on planers.

He sounds like a very professional and honest dealer who is complying within current regulations rather than trying to make a quick buck to me.

Cheers Peter

 

[lurker]

sell the old Whitehill style blocks and cutters for spindle moulders which HAVE been illegal since 2003.

I'm not suggesting you are wrong because I am no expert on minutae of woodworking machines H&S, but where exactly do regulations state these are illegal?
To sell?
To use in a employer /employee environment?

An educated guess is that at worst, HSE "advised" that they should not to be used.

 

[Peter Sefton]

http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/wis37.pdf

http://www.hse.gov.uk/pUbns/priced/l114.pdf

Bed time reading for the those who suffer insomnia.

Cheers Peter

 

[MikeK]

Maybe I'm missing something relevant, but if it's not legal to sell those blades, why does the eBay seller have them listed?

 

[deema]

Thanks Peter,
I read through the regs, and may have missed it but can't see anything that makes rebating illegal. Sedgwick still sell and advertise that their P/T can rebate....but include shaw guards for this purpose to comply with the regs. I think that selling the blades is still legal unless I've missed something?

 

[Peter Sefton]

Thanks Peter,
I read through the regs, and may have missed it but can't see anything that makes rebating illegal. Sedgwick still sell and advertise that their P/T can rebate....but include shaw guards for this purpose to comply with the regs. I think that selling the blades is still legal unless I've missed something?

Deema

A small section from sheet 17

New (CE­marked) planing machines should be designed so that it is not possible to carry out rebating using the end of the cutter block.4

http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/wis17.pdf

I attended a HSE training session in 1998 when the new regs were launched and explained. It was a made very clear that if we managed workshops and didn't follow the ACOPs and new PUWER regulations we would be liable if a person under our supervision had an accident. We needed to write risk assessments and safe systems of work for our workshops, if you decided after the ACOPs and advice given that is was still safe to operate machines under the old 74 regs and an accident were to take place you wouldn't have a leg to stand on if the worst happened, this is not a position I wish to put my own students, employees or myself under. Under the current HSE regime every workshop has to make their own risk assessment and determination how they wish to comply.
Not a great situation to be put in.

Cheers Peter

 

[lurker]

This was the point I was trying to make.
HSE does not ban things and does not have the power to make things illegal.
They just steer you away from dangerous practices.
Hence the reference to guidance in the ACOP
By the way, the docs Peter references can be downloaded for free, if you skip the boring stuff there is good advice there for all of us.

The tools are sellable, it's their use in a commercial setting employees or students or the public, if we as individuals want to use them that's ok (even if it is a bit stupid).

 

[Peter Sefton]

I think you are correct Lurker, individuals can do as they wish but commercial workshops have a duty of care to their employees ...., it's only once an accident happens that the HSE get heavy. If you are taken to court proving your method was safe is almost impossible as the accident has occurred and you would be asked why you didn't comply with PUWER or the ACOPs.

I had a lad come for interview this week, he is currently working in a workshop where another worker lost his finger on the spindle moulder this week. He was using an old Whitehall block and no guarding, I assume the boss will be prosecuted as the HSE have been involved but more importantly a young woodworker has lost a finger, they could have been lucky and this may have never happened but it did and now it's to late for all concerned.

I believe the regs are a bit of a mess, they are minefield and like all minefields only dangerous once stepped on! So I personally take a very cautious approach.

Cheers Peter

 

[Eric The Viking]

(written before Peter's posting above)

Forgive my ignorance as a non-owner of spindle machinery. Whitehill blocks: are they illegal because they don't have cutter retaining pins (relying on friction only), or not an anti-kickback shape (like modern router cutters), or something else?

I am reminded that my planer block only retains the blades by friction: although they are inserted at an angle, and there are wedge-shaped gib strips to grab them, if the block was stopped dead by some mechanical failure, the kinetic energy of the knives would have a tangential moment that might eject them in the absence of a workpiece. It would have to be something really dramatic though, and would be catastrophic for the machine, and the velocity would be much lower than, say, losing a tooth from a 250mm mitre saw blade.

I do stupid things occasionally through ignorance or being distracted, but generally, machinery makes me pay close attention. I know far too many woodworkers, mostly professionals, with bits missing, usually of fingers. It's hard to believe nowadays that some methods were ever deemed acceptable risk. That said, I do have a printer's guillotine, probably C19th, which has a 15" blade roughly 3" tall, that has a slicing action (like a vertical Morso). It's very useful occasionally, but I store it partially dismantled!

 

[Peter Sefton]

Eric the regulations covering the Euro safety or chip limited blocks had several improvements made to them compared with the older Whitehill blocks and are cover under this document.

http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/wis37.pdf

The modern planers block is inherently safer than a spindle block for several reasons:

The planers blades and block were designed to be used at a set RPM speed, the spindle moulders speed needs to be set to match the block being used.

The amount of cutter held within the planers block is large in comparison to the amount of cutter projection and the cutter block acts as the limiter.

The wedge bar in cutter blocks should grip the cutters via centrifugal unless they haven't been tightened at all, the chance of a planers blades coming out is very rare but not impossible. My Hammer/Felder planer blades are held by pins on the wedge bar and I assume most higher end machines are now the same. I had an old Wadkin some 25 years ago which had setting screws with fixed washer heads through the planer blades, this made it a dream to set up but would also stop the blades slipping out if the worst were to happen.

Cheers Peter

 

[tomatwark]

sell the old Whitehill style blocks and cutters for spindle moulders which HAVE been illegal since 2003.

I'm not suggesting you are wrong because I am no expert on minutae of woodworking machines H&S, but where exactly do regulations state these are illegal?
To sell?
To use in a employer /employee environment?

An educated guess is that at worst, HSE "advised" that they should not to be used.

Here

http://www.hse.gov.uk/woodworking/tooling.htm

I think the selling bit comes under this http://www.hse.gov.uk/work-equipment-ma ... hinery.htm

As Peter has said the wood machinery regulations are a bit of mess and as an employer a nightmare to work out if you have covered everything, they really could do with being scrapped completely and rewritten, there have been so many additional bits that have been introduced over the years, we could do with a full review, and more clearer simpler set of regs.

Maybe this might be positive thing to come out of BREXIT as we may only have to comply with one lot of regs made up by one country, although I guess this might just be being sorted when I retire in 20 years or so. :lol:

 

[scrimper]

Maybe I'm missing something relevant, but if it's not legal to sell those blades, why does the eBay seller have them listed?

The seller who advised me they were not allowed to sell blades that rebate does advertise blades that fit the Startrite PT260 (old UK made model) but they are plain ended and do not have a rebating facility. The original blades have one end that are not at right angles and hence protrude a little to allow rebating, the blades offered have both ends at 90 degs.

As I mentioned I am not bothered about the lack of rebate facility I was just intrigued about the regs on rebating.