Bent blade

[Rob D]

Evening all
Can anyone tell me if this blade is beyond saving? I’ve measured the bow to be 1mm at its deepest point. I’m wandering if it’s worth looking at the veritas pmv replacement blade and accompanying cap iron? Those 2 combined come in around £100 and I’m not sure an old record smoother is worth that kind of spend or if I’d be better off putting the money towards something new like a Clifton 3 or 4.

 

[Bod]

How well does it currently work?
How much curve is there when the cap iron is removed?
Is that a Record blade, square or curved top?
You have a Record No.4 from about the 1950's their best quality period.

Bod

 

[Rob D]

How well does it currently work?
How much curve is there when the cap iron is removed?
Is that a Record blade, square or curved top?
You have a Record No.4 from about the 1950's their best quality period.

Bod

It works ok but I feel like it used to work a lot better hence my investigation into what was happening.
Without the cap iron fitted the bend is negligible, but this bend in the iron seems to prevent it sitting completely flush on the frog which I would imagine isn’t great?

 

[Bod]

You've got a later Record blade, it might be the cap iron needs a little shaping, just enough to allow the blade to sit flat, the cap iron looks to be a Record type, but is it?
The blade looks to be almost new, it might be not as thick/stiff as an older one.

Bod

 

[Jacob]

Evening all
Can anyone tell me if this blade is beyond saving? I’ve measured the bow to be 1mm at its deepest point. I’m wandering if it’s worth looking at the veritas pmv replacement blade and accompanying cap iron? Those 2 combined come in around £100 and I’m not sure an old record smoother is worth that kind of spend or if I’d be better off putting the money towards something new like a Clifton 3 or 4.

Better off just buying another 2nd hand plane!
Blade doesn't look too bad. It needs to sit tight and flat against the frog when the lever cap is engaged. Look at it sideways when installed - from both sides and see if there's a gap . If so then perhaps tighten the lever cap bolt more, bend the cap iron a touch, or look closely to see what is preventing it and file it off or whatever e.g. is the bolt holding them together too bulky and touching the frog? Look for shiny contact points in the wrong places.
PS I had a similar prob with a badly fitting blade - it turned out that the the little bit of the sole casting you can see in the middle of the front edge of the frog was sticking out too far and lifting the blade away from the frog. Just filed it down a bit.

 

[IWW]

The blade really only needs to sit firmly against the frog where the lever cap bears on the toe & upper ends. If the blade/cap-iron assembly is a little concave (looking from the frog side) it might introduce a slight tendency to chatter, but I think it would have to be a pretty marked curve for that to occur. The heavy "single-bend" cap-irons sold by Veritas et al will put quite a curve in the older style thin blades but I haven't seen too many complaints about that reducing performance - most claim the heavier cap-irons improve performance.

Be that as it may, you seem to have a pretty decent plane there, and imo, fitting these with a good after-market, slightly thicker blade can be the best bang for buck when it comes to lifting the performance of an old Record or Stanley. I'll out myself & admit I am not a lover of Cliftons, I had a #4 for a long time but we never got on well. I find the older Records & Stanleys lighter & more nimble as smoothers and well-fettled, they can equal the performance of any Clifton or any other of the expensive models...

Just my opinion...
Cheers,

 

[G S Haydon]

Are there any issue with how the plane works at all? I note you say it could work better. In what way?

 

[johnwalls26]

I have never seen a blade bow in that direction; is the frog too far back? I would try several adjustments before considering replacement. I have replaced with Hock, IBC and Ray Iles blades. Axminster currently have some (Asian) workshop 50mm blades for a fiver which are surprisingly good.

 

[Ttrees]

Looks like it possibly maybe needing the grind freshened up?
Should it be bottoming out on the work or indeed, the bed.
Might be worth resetting the frog incase it maybe a skew aswell,
Just incase both maybe working together against you.

I think I may have noticed this before after reducing the camber of an iron.

 

[Rob D]

Thanks for all the help guys. I’ve managed to get back up to the shed this evening to have a bit of a play this evening.
I’ve taken everything apart and reset, checked the frog thoroughly and all seems fine.
I’m pretty sure this is an issue with the blade and cap iron union, when I take the cap iron off the blade is straight and as soon as bring them together and tighten the cap iron screw the bend is reintroduced. The thing I’m more unsure about is whether it matters that the blade is not in full contact with full length of the frog. It is touching at the top and bottom but not in the middle. I could get a 0.40mm feeler gauge in the gap as per the picture, this gap was reduced when I tightened the lever cap screw but it was so tight I could hardly move the depth adjustment wheel.

 

[rogxwhit]

That's a weird chipbreaker. It looks flat with a curve just at the end. No wonder it's distorting the blade. But you know the test of anything is how it works, and if it works there's nothing to worry about. But my chipbreakers rise up from the flat in a hump before descending to where they contact the blade edge.

How's the plane in use?

 

[Rob D]

That's a weird chipbreaker. It looks flat with a curve just at the end. No wonder it's distorting the blade. But you know the test of anything is how it works, and if it works there's nothing to worry about. But my chipbreakers rise up from the flat in a hump before descending to where they contact the blade edge.

How's the plane in use?

I’ll take a closer look at the cap iron tomorrow.
It works ok but I just don’t feel like it’s quite as good as when I first got it, I struggle to get full width shavings and the adjustment seems go from no shaving to quite a deep shaving with only small turn of the blade adjustment wheel.
Had a really close look at the cutting edge tonight and in spite of using the veritas sharpening guide the edge is neither completely flat or square to the sides, not sure how I managed that but I’m going to put some work into getting the cutting edge flat across its length and square to the sides and take it from there.

 

[--Tom--]

There are other options for a replacement blade than veritas. The Clifton blades are pretty good for example.

 

[Rob D]

There are other options for a replacement blade than veritas. The Clifton blades are pretty good for example.

Was looking at the Ray Iles 01 blades on workshop heaven as well. They seem to present better value and are thinner than the aftermarket veritas option so should be better for retrofitting into an older plane.

 

[Jacob]

I’ll take a closer look at the cap iron tomorrow.
It works ok but I just don’t feel like it’s quite as good as when I first got it, I struggle to get full width shavings and the adjustment seems go from no shaving to quite a deep shaving with only small turn of the blade adjustment wheel.
Had a really close look at the cutting edge tonight and in spite of using the veritas sharpening guide the edge is neither completely flat or square to the sides, not sure how I managed that but I’m going to put some work into getting the cutting edge flat across its length and square to the sides and take it from there.

Generally you don't get full width shavings unless working in very easy stuff.
Going from zero to deep tends to mean that the blade isn't sitting tight against the back of the mouth and deflects and digs in under load.
I doubt sharpening has much to do with it as long as you have an edge angle fairly close to 30º.
I'm guessing that the blade is not sitting tight against the frog and/or the mouth. Winding the frog back a tiny amount might do it but it's just a guess!
New blade not likely to solve it unless you by chance get it seated better when you fit it.

 

[G S Haydon]

The iron should never be in full contact with the frog. Full width at the top, full width at the bottom, hollow in the middle. The delightful thing is a bend applies a bias to the top and bottom of the frog.

Yours show a more extreme gap than most Bailey planes, however, my wooden jack makes that bend look flat!

Any cap iron will bend a cutting iron. I can do that feeler gauge trick with mine. It's a good demo to those who think frogs require a "tune up".

Back off the lever cap screw to normal tension and use it. If you want less bend, the cap iron is very soft so bend it flatter, or file the the underside of the hump.

Looks like the plane has been well used so it's not likely to be a lemon.

 

[Jacob]

The iron should never be in full contact with the frog. Full width at the top, full width at the bottom, hollow in the middle. The delightful thing is a bend applies a bias to the top and bottom of the frog.

I think the lever cap keeps top and bottom tight, transmitted by the cap iron to very close behind the edge, where being solidly held tight is most needed.

 

[G S Haydon]