Beginner question about short courses

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Ntwadumela

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Hello,

I am new to the forum. I found the forum through a review of The Intelligent Hand posted by Christopher Schwarz on Twitter. My name is Andrew and I'm 25.

I was supposed to be doing a 2-3 year joinery course in September just gone but had to withdraw for a medical reason. I now have to wait until next September to enrol again (I think?).

In the meantime there are short courses in another college. They're two separate courses beginning in Jan and Feb. One is Introduction to Carpentry and the other is Introduction to Furniture Making. "This is a full cost course at £180. The course runs in the evening for 2-2.5 hours a week over 10 weeks starting at 6pm." This applies to both courses. So full price is £360.

Are these courses worth doing?

Thanks (I can give you more info I just didn't want to write a massive post, also I can't post links)
 
Probably yes if you can afford it, or can afford to risk it being a waste of money.
20-25 hours is very little. That'd be just the first 3 to 4 days of a proper course of 2 to 3 years. Wouldn't expect to get much done. But if in doubt say yes!
 
Welcome to the forum Andrew
You say you want to do a joinery course in September, but you are researching Chris Schwarz
The carpentry course will probably be closer to the same lines as the joinery course you wish to do.
A world away from anything Chris Schwarz does.
You could get quite a lot of hand tools for that price on eBay and watch some videos like of Phil Lowe, Cosmans old stuff makes good watching, I could go on.

Have you got a workshop?
What kind of stuff would you like to make...like a future goal down the line?
Its hard to give a recommendation if you don't mention this

Tom
 
Thanks. I don't have a workshop. I'll try to explain.

The joinery course I was supposed to do has two options after the first year which are site or bench joinery. My original aim was to become a furniture maker but I've shifted more towards carpentry. To be honest I'm sort of naive about woodworking. Phil Lowe's videos were actually the first I watched on YouTube about woodworking.

I then got my first woodworking book which I thought if "I get a good one I'll save money in the long run" so I chose The Anarchist's Tool Chest by Schwarz. The only tool I have bought myself so far (taking the advice of Mr Schwarz) is a boxwood folding rule. I've been looking into tools recently and I expect I might get a tool or two for Christmas. Wood by Wright has a video titled Basic Tools For a Hand Tool Woodworking Shop - Starter Tool Set for the workshop. (again can't post the link sorry). I was heavily leaning towards hand tools only as I like tradition. His suggestions seem solid.

To hurry all of this up I don't have a workshop, yet. As for stuff I would like to make. I suppose to start off I'd like to make a collapsible workbench and my end goal would be to make all sorts. I can't really pinpoint something sensible. An apothecary cabinet? A desk?

I'm looking for a career, something in the woodworking field. I'm also looking to it as a hobby.
 
I wouldn't worry too much about the long term as long as you get a lot of practice in. There is less difference between general bench joinery and furniture making than you'd think and it's a much better starting point.
The worst alternative is probably the fine furniture bespoke end which is on offer all over the place but leaves a lot of finishers with very little idea of the wider world of woodworking.
 
I definitely learned a lot more from doing a Joinery apprenticeship than I did from a 2-year furniture making course. Also there's more call for joiners than furniture makers when you look into getting a job.
 
Jacob":14x5pjqo said:
I wouldn't worry too much about the long term as long as you get a lot of practice in. There is less difference between general bench joinery and furniture making than you'd think and it's a much better starting point.
The worst alternative is probably the fine furniture bespoke end which is on offer all over the place but leaves a lot of finishers with very little idea of the wider world of woodworking.
Ok so that's the plan atm for September. Thanks. The issue I have now is what to do between now and then which is why I was looking into the January and February courses. I also considered working as a labourer although I don't know how long it takes to get certified etc
 
Labouring is brilliant. Thats what I did for first job. Mainly digging holes on big building sites with pick shovel and wheel barrow - which was a serious learning process about using tools. I still like doing it if I get the chance!
On a big building site you get an insight into all sorts of stuff and may find yourself working with some very skilled chaps and an amiable bunch of nutters. Plus playing with big boys toys - diggers, dumpers, cranes etc.
 
Jacob":3uurgfjx said:
Labouring is brilliant. Thats what I did for first job. Mainly digging holes on big building sites with pick shovel and wheel barrow - which was a serious learning process about using tools. I still like doing it if I get the chance!
On a big building site you get an insight into all sorts of stuff and may find yourself working with some very skilled chaps and an amiable bunch of nutters. Plus playing with big boys toys - diggers, dumpers, cranes etc.
Sounds good! I've had a fairly physical job in a warehouse before which I got used to although I once helped my uncle lay turf and remove paving slabs etc. Shovelling the soil was the hardest part definitely, was aching for a while after. How difficult is labouring physically? Is it easy to get into? I think I need a CSCS Card?
 
Ntwadumela":2vwvwsmh said:
.....Shovelling the soil was the hardest part definitely, was aching for a while after
.A fine art! You need a pick, the right sort of shovel and technique. The main thing is to work to a level e.g. in a trench you get down to the level to start with and then work horizontally along the trench- picking the face vertically and loosening it before shovelling it from the floor
How difficult is labouring physically? Is it easy to get into? I think I need a CSCS Card?
I was fairly fit back then and enjoyed labouring. Don't know about CSCS I haven't done it for a long time, well not in the same way.
 
Ntwadumela":1f9mihzd said:
Hello,

I am new to the forum. I found the forum through a review of The Intelligent Hand posted by Christopher Schwarz on Twitter. My name is Andrew and I'm 25.

I was supposed to be doing a 2-3 year joinery course in September just gone but had to withdraw for a medical reason. I now have to wait until next September to enrol again (I think?).

In the meantime there are short courses in another college. They're two separate courses beginning in Jan and Feb. One is Introduction to Carpentry and the other is Introduction to Furniture Making. "This is a full cost course at £180. The course runs in the evening for 2-2.5 hours a week over 10 weeks starting at 6pm." This applies to both courses. So full price is £360.

Are these courses worth doing?

Thanks (I can give you more info I just didn't want to write a massive post, also I can't post links)

Just check how the course is actually run before you dive in. I did one at a local college with a dozen people all making different things at different stages. As the guy was trying to teach a dozen different things at once the actual time spent learning anything useful was minimal. Good experience but I wouldn’t rush back.
 
decide what you want first, labouring, joinery and furniture making are different things.
 
Jacob has a wealth of knowledge but he's dropped the ball here although I get the point about multiskill education.
No offence Jacob you're too long away from the coal face and I don't say that lightly. No offence meant.
Do not aspire to be a labourer.
It's a great craic when you're a young fella. Working , learning off the older fellas, having a pint or 6 on a Friday. Being one of the boys. Daft conversations, cups of tea, more craic, more long hours breaking your back for the guvnor. There's advantages. I've spent my life working on the tools. Grafting. The whole legend. All the Bullsh*t. Sod that.
Pissing away your years and money.

No doubts.
But there's skills in stacking shelves.
Aspire to higher skills.
Aspire to having the cognitive ability to not work your life for someone else's profit.
Don't just work hard. Work clever.
Labouring is not joinery.
Be a joiner. Good job.
You might earn some money.
Then when you are a master woodworker you will be ready to earn millions.
(Muffled laughter*)
 
Bm101":373guqwx said:
Jacob has a wealth of knowledge but he's dropped the ball here although I get the point about multiskill education.
No offence Jacob you're too long away from the coal face and I don't say that lightly. No offence meant.
Do not aspire to be a labourer.
Perfectly OK as a temporary job before his course starts. Could even be a valuable experience. I'm not recommending it as a lifetimes career! A few months, a year or so.
 
Mrs C":4jc2jwne said:
....

Just check how the course is actually run before you dive in. I did one at a local college with a dozen people all making different things at different stages. As the guy was trying to teach a dozen different things at once the actual time spent learning anything useful was minimal. Good experience but I wouldn’t rush back.
I did a similar course, intensive C&G over 6 months. Intake was staggered so everybody was working at different stages but all to the same syllabus. It worked really well. We were taught together for half hour a day, taking notes over particular topics and talking about them, but the rest of the time at our own speed and stage.
 
Jacob":1598zniy said:
Perfectly OK as a temporary job before his course starts. Could even be a valuable experience. I'm not recommending it as a lifetimes career! A few months, a year or so.
Fair point then. As said, no offence intended.
 
No offence taken.
I've done all sorts of cr@p jobs mainly when I was young and fit. Barman, farm labourer, bus conductor, old folks home handyman/gardener, labourer, steel erector (seconded from labouring), kitchen porter, warehouse worker, HGV driver in a quarry. All interesting and eye opening. Actually all with prospects if you wanted to hang on in, and a cheerful team of good company maniacs, with the odd exception.
 
I would save your money, especially if you are going to do the course you intend on doing in September.

I also agree with Jacob. If you are going to go down the joinery route understanding the environment you will be working in is invaluable. A year as a labourer working alongside all trades will give you that. You will soon realise that being able to string a sentence together is as valuable as your woodworking skills.

But most importantly is working out which direction you want to go. Otherwise you will waste a lot of time and money. Take that from someone who has a PHD in Aeronautical Engineering and has nevet touched an aircraft.
 
Long time lurker but first time post from me, I felt compelled to reply as perhaps I can offer an alternative insight.

Firstly, you've been given sage advice from a couple of people already. Decide what it is that interests you most and follow that direction.

There is a world of difference between the two course subjects and briefly I will explain them here as I've yet to see anyone else do so.

Carpentry - fundamentally in this day and age, what the word "carpentry" describes is first and second fix on houses. First fix is effectively building the timber parts of a house such as roofs, stud walls etc. Second fix is doing the internal fixtures, for example skirting boards, door frames, fitting doors, etc.

Joinery - joinery traditionally refers to what is now referred to as second fix. In modern parlance a joiner is someone who produces the internal fixtures and fittings for houses, timber windows, doors, window frames, staircases etc.

You've mentioned enjoying the work of both Phil Lowe and Chris Schwarz, both of whom are traditional furniture makers.
They are both fortunate enough to have carved themselves a niche where they are able to make a living from expounding on and promoting hand-tool wood working.
However I use the word fortunate as as much as the majority of professional furniture makers would probably love to be making three pieces of furniture a year using exclusively hand tools, they also have bills to pay.

Now for a bit of that insight I promised at the top of this post:

I signed up for a year-long furniture making course that commenced in September of this year. I have a background in wood-working (I did an apprenticeship as a traditional boat builder nearly 15 years ago) and mechanical engineering but my career took a slightly different path and I wanted to get back to wood-working without necessarily revisiting floaty things as well expand my skill set.

Come November just past, I had dropped out and am now working three days a week with a Cabinet Maker and Furniture maker. While the course had it's interesting moments, it tackled furniture making from a truly academic point of view. Regrettably for the poor tutors, I have enough experience working in commercial workshops (including running my own Boat-Yard for a couple of years) to know that they were setting my fellow student colleagues up for a fall. By this I mean that when my fellow students made it through the course, clutched their NVQ/C&G and if lucky, found jobs in workshops, they might find themselves in trouble because of some of the habits, methods and ideas that were being encouraged in an academic setting.

My advice echos on what I first said in this rather long-winded post. Decide what it is you want to focus on and focus on it. That having been said, I personally would be more inclined were I starting from word zero to do a short course (IE no more than 2-3 days) that will teach you the basic principles of what you are interested in and I'd then tap up every person/business in my immediate area and ask if they are either taking on apprentices or offer my services gratis for a fixed period of time. It might sound crazy but that fundamentally is what an apprenticeship used to be. If you intend to make an actual career out of it, you'll learn far more that is of significantly more use than ever you would on a one or two year course.

Either way, best of luck!
***EDIT for post-script**

P.S. There is a reason people stopped using folding wooden rules, it's because tape measures are quicker, easier and significantly more accurate!
 

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