Bathroom Plumbing

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Mark A

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Hi chaps,

I'm in the process of plumbing in bathrooms and have two questions regarding waste pipes.

Q1. In one bathroom the waste pipes have to run under the floor. My original thought was to have a single 40mm pipe from the basin (furthest point) with branches off to the shower and bath. However, I'm concerned there would a possibility of water backing up if the bath was drained, since the bath waste is higher than the shower.

Since the bath is going to be positioned on an external wall I could run a separate pipe outside exclusively for it, if a single pipe isn't a good idea.

Q2. I intended to ventilate the (external) soil pipe, either by taking it up above the roof as per the regulations, or by fitting an external air admittance valve. Would this be adequate? I've tried to research online but most sites are American and I think they like to do things a little bit different to us.

Cheers,
Mark
 
Q1 - depends on the length of runs/ number of bends/ whether you are venting the branches. It sounds like you are piping as a single stack system. I would think you would be better installing 110mm under the floor and connecting individual brances to that if you can. If you undersize the pipework you can get water backing up or negative pressure pulling the seal from the traps. You can fit aav's to branches to help stop this and possibly run a smaller pipe if you want to connect more than one appliance into a common branch but it would be larger than 40mm.

2 - The head of the drain is supposed to be vented to atmosphere

If you look at marley/ polypipe/ terrain/ McAlpine you should find some guidance.

Watch where you connect to in relation to the WC connection or you might have more backing up problems.
 
Hi Jimmy,

Thanks for your reply.

Unfortunately there's not enough room under the floor for a 110mm pipe if I take into account the noggins, electrical cables and copper pipes under there too. Tonight I had a go with some 40mm pipe and that was ok - anything much wider will be difficult, possibly impossible to manipulate.

Regarding my first question: do you think the basin and shower could be connected together with one run of 40mm pipe under the floor? I could then take the bath waste outside via a separate 40mm pipe (possibly above the floor level as the pipework would be behind a panel) and then connect both pipes together to a larger diameter pipe before joining the external soil pipe.

Mark
 
You can pick up the basin and shower with one pipe, but you need to put a siphon break between the shower and the basin.

Do bear in mind that if your using a shower pump with one of those drencher heads, you are shifting a lot of water so you may be better of giving the shower its own waste and bringing out the bath and the basin together.

I am wondering why you need 40mm from a basin? If it were me doing this, I would run 32mm from the basin, to the back of a 40mm swept tee that picks up the shower or bath using a 32 -40mm reducer.

Do they now make external air admittance (durgo) valves now?

They were normally only for internal use as there is a probability that the flaps could freeze up. Bear in mind I have been retired for over ten years so the regs may have changed.

A durgo valve may save some time on installation, but it is something else to go wrong.
 
Lat time I re modelled a bathroom i ran the 4" pipe from the toilet to the outside, and then for the vent went up to the roof in 3", to save on cost and reduce visual impact. Put a bird catcher on the top and there is no more maintenance involved.
I ran the other smaller pipes (32 and 40 mm) outside into a collector and down to the drain.
 
I'd recommend you have separate waste runs to the soil pipe. Our was originally both into one and it caused the bath to empty very slowly. Now both separate and a big improvement. The other tip I got was to use solvent joints rather than the push fit connectors.
 
Morturn - we'll be using a thermostatic mixer tap for the shower run off a combi boiler, so there shouldn't be an exceptional volume of waste water from the shower.

I have three bathrooms to plumb, as well as the kitchen and utility room, so I bought six lengths of 40mm pipe and a load of joints last week. I'll use 40mm for the basin simply because I have it all to hand.

What's a siphon break? I'm finding aquarium-related results from Google, but not plumbing.
 
I'm with Morturn (but an amateur, although I have done a few bathrooms in my time).

Waste pipe plumbing is relatively easy. I'd use 1 1/4" for the basins for various reasons, but mainly because you can get nicer looking fittings for it, if the undersides of any of the basins are exposed, and anyway, you may not get a basin spigot the right size to couple straight to 1 1/2". Adaptors are easy to find, and the pipe is cheap.

Regarding the shower and the bath, it's a tough one, depending on the lengths of run and the falls involved. Broadly speaking, the more acute you can make the angle of the joint, the better behaved it will be: you want a "y" rather than a "T".

In my limited experience with bath and shower traps, I have found that the modern ones are awkward, in that the traps tend to have fairly restricted flow. They also have little water in them, meaning there isn't much weight to resist a bubble of foul air (or backflow of water).

If your "y" join is a reasonable distance from both bath and shower, the backflow has to travel further in the wrong direction to reach the shower trap (the shower should be the "joining" arm, rather than the main run). Once the flow is established, the Venturi effect will suck water from the shower trap, rather than push water out into the shower tray, as long as the bathwater can flow away quickly. So, assuming all is correct, the shower may glug a bit , but it won't fill with water.

The most important things with wastepipes is to make absolutely sure that the inside edges of the cut pipes are as clean and smooth as possible, ideally bevelled. Your worst enemy is long hair from the household (I have wife + two daughters - nuff said!). I try always to use solvent weld, as it should have smoother joints if done well. It's really essential to de-burr the inside of the pipe after hacksawing it, or better to flash it with a blowlamp, and then deburr it - there mustn't be anything for hair to catch on. I even smooth off the moulded corners of water exits from shower traps, as experience tells me that's the likely place for a blockage to start - just after the trap itself.

Finally, plastic isn't wood - it has no grain. Wastepipes expand and contract as hot water flows down them, mostly lengthwise. So don't fit a long straight run with trapped, sharp corners at each end - it can be a source of problems unless the pipe can move slightly. For me, it's another reason for using solvent-weld: pipes can't walk out of fittings, but against that, gasketed fittings do allow for some movement (still hate them though).

I hate shower trays too, because the waste piping is usually totally inaccessible once fitted. But if you think about how it has to run when you set it out, rather than merely if it fits together or not, you should be fine.

E.

PS: for some things I'd say "get a professional" but I have seen so many horrid bodges, I doubt you'd do worse than many plumbers. The good ones, are excellent, but it's hard to know for sure who they are!

PPS: the last one I did had shower + basin together and the bath running separately into the 4" soil pipe, as the shower trap was quite a bit lower than the bath one. It works well. In that case the soil pipe was inside and they join to a horizontal run (into the top of the pipe, obviously). That soil pipe has an air vent at the top of the actual stack though: originally it went up through the roof tiles to a basket at the top, but it was untidy and badly fitted. We put an air admittance valve in the eaves, right next to the bathroom wall, and repaired the tiling above. It's been fine for ten years - no smells or any bother from it, but it _is_ inside, technically, and protected from the weather.
 
Hi Eric

I've used my mitre saw to cut pipe in the past and it left a perfect burr-free edge, so intend to do the same this time round.

This particular bathroom had a strange layout when we bought the house. I've moved the doorway to an adjacent wall and raised the floor 5 inches as it was down two steps, so now the void between floor and ceiling is about 11/12 inches. Although there's plenty of room for a good fall, between the joists is quite restricted, which is why I'm reluctant to fit larger pipes.

I'll have an experiment with the pipes later today.

Cheers,
Mark
 
Mark A":34ghp73h said:
Morturn - we'll be using a thermostatic mixer tap for the shower run off a combi boiler, so there shouldn't be an exceptional volume of waste water from the shower.

I have three bathrooms to plumb, as well as the kitchen and utility room, so I bought six lengths of 40mm pipe and a load of joints last week. I'll use 40mm for the basin simply because I have it all to hand.

What's a siphon break? I'm finding aquarium-related results from Google, but not plumbing.


A siphon break or vacuumed break is a small device that stops the allows air into the system to prevent the water seal on the basin sink being siphoned away when you empty the bath.

If you have ever stayed in a hotel or guest house where you hear the sink gurgling after someone else empty’s their bath, sink or basin or flushes the loo.

Most DIY shops sell them, but they all call them different things, you may also look at an anti siphon bottle trap too
 
I re-modelled our bathroom and expanded the ensuite at the same time. I have all of the wastes running into a single 40mm pipe, with an air-admittance valve to prevent any suck back and gurgling. There is no problem with bath water back-filling the shower drain.

However, the ensuite shower drain is 'upstream' of the bath drain. If we use the ensuite shower, when the bath is draining, the shower can't drain away fast enough and the tray starts to flood. It is a design flaw, by me, but we just know not to use the shower when the bath is draining.

The shower in the bathroom is downstream of the bath, and doesn't appear to suffer from the same problem, and seems to drain adequately even when the main pipe is full of bath water.
 
This is an excellent article, I think.
http://blog.wavin.co.uk/a-remedy-for-fa ... ctuations/

The HepVO inline traps sort out all the issues and concerns raised in one fell swoop as far as I can see. I fitted them at our last house and they worked a charm. The only downside, if it can be called that, is the vertical one from the cloakroom handbasin...because there is no u-bend to slow the flow, the first time you hear it empty, it sounds as if it's flowing out all over the floor. Most disconcerting if you're not expecting it!
 
Thanks for that Roger, it looks ideal.

I think my problems have been solved - I'll fit a HepVO trap to the basin, and run a second waste pipe out from the bath.

Ta da!

Cheers,
Mark

Sent from my Moto G (4) using Tapatalk
 
RogerS":nt1rafmr said:
...The only downside, if it can be called that, is the vertical one from the cloakroom handbasin...because there is no u-bend to slow the flow...

Surely you have one of these:
mcalpine-1-14-straight-through-trap-x10-02213600L.jpg

It's all very well having no trap near the basin, until the first time someone's engagement ring goes down the sink, or worse, just one of the gems from same. DAMHIKT.

E.

PS: To be fair, it's actually happened (twice) in our family at the kitchen sink, where the plughole gaps are bigger, but given the sort of odd things I often clean in the handbasin (as long as I don't get spotted), a trap right underneath is still a jolly good idea.

PPS: probably as a joke, that picture seems to be upside-down!
 
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