Bad Glue

[custard]

I normally change all my glue when the clocks go back to guarantee fresh stocks. Great plan but I've shot myself in the foot because amongst the replacements was this bottle of Titebond Extend ordered from Axminster. Came to use it today and discovered something's wrong, you can see how it's curdled or separated out above the red arrows,

Pouring some out it was thin to the point of being watery and very yellow, here it is next to some good Titebond III,

Just out of interest I tried it on some pieces of scrap and the bond was very weak.

It's a puzzle as I'd always associated this type of problem with freezing, but given the timing it's difficult to see how that could have happened anywhere in the supply chain. If anyone's ordered any Titebond recently might be a good idea to just check that it's okay.

 

[NazNomad]

You probably know this but ...


Titebond Extend glues have a half shelf life of the non-extend/regular wood glues.
The extend glue is simply regular wood glue with with large particles added to block the wood's pores.
This blocking of the wood pores extends the open glue time.
Given time the large particles will settle to the bottom of the glue bottle and the remaining regular glue at the top of the bottle will be more like standard glue with a shorter open time.
Extend type glues should be stirred, not shaken, every few months to prevent this separation and to prevent the large particle from sticking to each other.
As much as 5% water can be added and stirred in to return the glue to it's normal viscosity should the separation occur.

Titebond extend glues have a shelf life of "1" year. Regular Titebond glues have a shelf life of "2" years.

 

[custard]

That's all news to me! Many thanks.

I've used Extend for ages, generally for those jobs which need just a little more time to adjust for square or fiddle with cramps, but not so long to make it worth mixing up a UF adhesive. Based on your comments I might think again.

Thanks again!

 

[Steve Maskery]

I find much of the stuff on here very frustrating, but when I see posts like this it makes it all worthwhile. I didn't know any of that and it is very useful info. Thank you both.

 

[skipdiver]

I find it impressive that you have the Red Arrows in your workshop.

 

[n0legs]

I find it impressive that you have the Red Arrows in your workshop.

Ha! That's nothing.
I've got The Dubliners locked up in mine.

 

[memzey]

Funny you should mention this. I recently bought a big bottle of titebond extend and noticed the same thing. It looks like the top part of the glue is sort of a darker yellow than the rest of the bottle. I shook the bottle so it was all evened out but was still a bit concerned so did a test. I glued up 2 x 4" lengths of 2 x 2 battens I pulled out the off cut bin and clamped them in the vice. The next day I clamped the bottom bit in the vice and wellied the top bit with a hammer. The two bits broke apart but not at the glue join i.e. the join was stronger than the wood as that broke before the glue did. I didn't test the open time but as the strength passed the test I assume open time will be unaffected.

 

[skipdiver]

I find it impressive that you have the Red Arrows in your workshop.

Ha! That's nothing.
I've got The Dubliners locked up in mine.

Ah! The Dubliners. I'm a big fan.

 

[arnoldmason8]

You probably know this but ...


-------------------------
Titebond extend glues have a shelf life of "1" year. Regular Titebond glues have a shelf life of "2" years.

This is not very helpful if there is on date of manufacture on the container

Arnold

 

[NazNomad]

Titebond has a date of manufacture code on each bottle.

From their website ... ''Our current lot numbering system is a 10 digit code. The format is: aymmddbat#. The "a" stands for Made in the U.S.A. The "y" is the last digit of the year of manufacture. Digits "mm" represent the month, and "dd" represent the day of the month. The final four digits represent the batch number used for quality control purposes. Therefore, a product with the lot number A104270023 was manufactured on April 27, 2011''.

 

[Ttrees]

How many people have experienced glue failure from Titebond or other caliphate (useless auto correct)...aliphatic resin ?
I think I read somewhere that its still sound after its use by date in a mysterious thread somewhere .
I'm not sure if it was the OP which disappeared or was it the thread ?

Either way I'm very curious as I've got a big bottle of regular stuff and a smaller damaged nozzle bottle decanted from the bigger one .
Both only opened once and has been in storage for nearly 3 years .

I'd love to do some tests but I want to keep the glue unopened again till I need it for a laminated bench build
I could/might do tests with the damaged bottle but it would probably be an unreliable test .

I cant remember in the thread if it has a sweet smell or a sour smell when gone off .
Has anyone seen an aliphatic resin failure ever and suspected something like it was gone off ?

Watching this thread with great interest as I don't /wont have any funds to buy any for a good long while .
Thanks folks

 

[RossJarvis]

I think I read somewhere that its still sound after its use by date in a mysterious thread somewhere .
I'm not sure if it was the OP which disappeared or was it the thread ?

Either way I'm very curious as I've got a big bottle of regular stuff and a smaller damaged nozzle bottle decanted from the bigger one .
Both only opened once and has been in storage for nearly 3 years .

I've not found a clear answer, but think Evo-Stick Waterproof (Resin W(the blue bottle, not the green)) is Aliphatic Resin. I used an old bottle which had gone snotty and lumpy and it really didn't work. This bottle had been knocking around for years and seemed fine over a far too long period, 3 years plus. I'm not sure if the change in consistency is an indication of it "going off", but I hadn't used this bottle for a few months and it was definitely different in consistency to the last time I'd used it..

 

[Peter Sefton]

I used to supply the Titebond veneer glue but I had a few issues with it's consistency and dropped it as a product, I haven't seen any problems with either the I or III.

Ross I believe you are right, Resin W is an Aliphatic resin as far as I know and a good glue.

Cheers Peter

 

[Jake]

The base glue is PVA still, the aliphatic resin component is a tackifier modifier component that make it more glorpy and sticky-feeling and gives more of an 'instant grab' in a feel-good way (and the yellow is dye). The tackification could I suppose be a genuinely useful quality for rubbed joints.

I don't think Resin W has an unusual amount of tackifiers - it lacks the glorp compared to the likes of Titebond - but it is a cross-linking PVA (which is a more fundamental difference in glue types than the amount of tackifiers, but not one connected to the aliphatic resin content).

 

[pollys13]

Cheers, informative, interesting post.

 

[ED65]

I think I read somewhere that its still sound after its use by date in a mysterious thread somewhere .

It should be yes. Those dates tend to be conservative. Sometime very.

Part of it is them not wanting people to use glue that is no longer up to snuff and have a failure, but it's all too easy for them to decide on overly conservative expiry dates because they have a vested interest in people buying more of their product. This is widely done in the food world and it is common knowledge that it's done with paints, I'd be astounded if the same were not true in the adhesive world. (Just to be clear, not all the time but certainly some of the time.)

Has anyone seen an aliphatic resin failure ever and suspected something like it was gone off ?

I've seen failures mentioned, sometimes with photos, on other forums, but without knowing how well the wood was prepped or how much clamp pressure was used I don't know how much you can go on the results. And obviously some bottles of glue will be more 'off' than others so tons of variables.

As custard said on another thread just the other day, the glue is the cheapest component in a job so it's not worth taking the risk on dodgy glue for anything important.

 

[Harbo]

I've been using some Titebond lll which is years old and it still seems to be ok.
Glued up a damaged toy last night and the join seems very strong this morning.

Rod

 

[Ttrees]

Thanks Ed
I think I was trying to ask another more constructive question subconsciously, but too tired to think.
So it seems there's a mutual consensus, that its a good idea to stir old glue just like paint .

I wonder if there's a good chance of it going off really quickly after said date or stirring ?
I guess it would need to be stirred in a sealed container ...or even rotating the bottle constantly the day or two before use .
I'm guessing it cures by exposure to air ?

Say it did get mixed correctly , Could it be sound for a day or two and then go off .....
Would I be able to tell by feel ,hopefully not feeling any lumps that wont stir out
or not at all and the glue seems fine but fails later on .

I think I might try to do a test with the small bottle anyway but there's gonna be some variables
Thanks again

 

[iNewbie]

Titebond have page dedicated to Shelf-life:

http://www.titebond.com/Libraries/Liter ... .sflb.ashx

Saying that their FAQ page states:

What does the term "shelf life" mean in regard to Titebond Wood Glues?
"Shelf life" is a conservative estimate of the minimum time period that we would expect a given product to remain usable, when stored as directed. This concept might also be called "useable service life" or "storage life," and it necessarily refers to both the physical handling properties and the ability of the product to perform properly. When used in reference to wood glues, reaching the stated shelf life does not mean that a product will "expire" or become unusable. Instead, we view the stated shelf life of most of our glues merely as a guideline to avoid potential aging concerns. In reality, as long as products like Titebond Original, Titebond II and Titebond III remain fluid, without a drastic change in appearance, they will continue to perform as intended.

http://www.titebond.com/frequently_asked_questions.aspx

 

[memzey]

I had glue failure once, with some Titebond III that froze in my old (uninsulated) shed. Tried a similar test to the one I described earlier in this thread and the bond was weak. The dried glue also had a chalky flakey sort of look to it. Not at all like normal, cured PVA.