Axminster TS-200-2 dado?
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Eric The Viking
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There are very few small saws made or imported into Europe that would let you use a Dado stack. It's not just Axminster's ones, but probably almost all smaller cabinet and site saws.
Because many dado stacks are intended for the American amateur market, these often have imperial bores (to fit older US saws), and won't fit on metric arbours properly (without sleeves, which would be rather risky). And anyway the usual arrangement for a saw that can take a dado stack is a threaded shaft...
... the common arrangement here is an arbour, a locking plate that retains the blade, and a securing bolt. This is to prevent the blade coming loose: the plate has pins that mate with the arbour and prevent it rotating independently. So the blade accelerating or decelerating cannot apply any torque to the locking bolt (the pins stop this happening).
Steve Maskery is the expert on this: he liaised with the HSE when he was making his tablesaw DVD. Contrary to myth, dado stacks are not actually illegal here, but deprecated on safety grounds.
As Mike has pointed out, there are other, far safer ways to do it, and in any case, by the time you have set it all up safely, you'd have done the job several times over with hand tools!
Because many dado stacks are intended for the American amateur market, these often have imperial bores (to fit older US saws), and won't fit on metric arbours properly (without sleeves, which would be rather risky). And anyway the usual arrangement for a saw that can take a dado stack is a threaded shaft...
... the common arrangement here is an arbour, a locking plate that retains the blade, and a securing bolt. This is to prevent the blade coming loose: the plate has pins that mate with the arbour and prevent it rotating independently. So the blade accelerating or decelerating cannot apply any torque to the locking bolt (the pins stop this happening).
Steve Maskery is the expert on this: he liaised with the HSE when he was making his tablesaw DVD. Contrary to myth, dado stacks are not actually illegal here, but deprecated on safety grounds.
As Mike has pointed out, there are other, far safer ways to do it, and in any case, by the time you have set it all up safely, you'd have done the job several times over with hand tools!
Tealeaf
Established Member
Thanks for the info on the arbor length Mike.
I'd disagree with your dado comment though. My personal opinion is that dado's & routers are not an either/or situation, both can have their place in the workshop, so I'd keep an open mind. I've been researching the TS I want to buy when I do my 'last ever' refit of my workshop and one of my preferences is for a TS that has a sufficiently long arbor that it can take a dado stack, so I've been thinking more along the lines of the Xcalibur/Harvey/Laguna/Grizzly/Deft clones. Different price category to the TS-200-2, but I think it's important not to rule out something for someone else based on what could be a personal preference.
I'd disagree with your dado comment though. My personal opinion is that dado's & routers are not an either/or situation, both can have their place in the workshop, so I'd keep an open mind. I've been researching the TS I want to buy when I do my 'last ever' refit of my workshop and one of my preferences is for a TS that has a sufficiently long arbor that it can take a dado stack, so I've been thinking more along the lines of the Xcalibur/Harvey/Laguna/Grizzly/Deft clones. Different price category to the TS-200-2, but I think it's important not to rule out something for someone else based on what could be a personal preference.
Mark A
Established Member
Would a grooving blade work?
http://bivenmachinerysales.co.uk/index. ... uct_id=790
It says the 5mm and 6mm blades have a plate thickness of 3mm.
Sent from my Moto G (4) using Tapatalk
http://bivenmachinerysales.co.uk/index. ... uct_id=790
It says the 5mm and 6mm blades have a plate thickness of 3mm.
Sent from my Moto G (4) using Tapatalk
Tealeaf
Established Member
Thank you, edit made.MikeJhn":3a8u5j8o said:
woodbrains
Established Member
Mark A":1z1koanb said:
Hello,
Grooves, along the grain; Dado, across the grain. These are optimised for rip cuts, essentially, the tear out cross grain would be horrendous.
I have used a dado stack in my friends workshop in the USA. It was the only time in all the decades I have done woodwork and I have never found the need since. Probably the most over rated device I know. There is ALWAYS another way to cut housings that is safer, more efficient and less of a hassle.
There are lots of reasons not to use one, especially in the saw you mention. Apart from the arbour being too short, the machine is simply not powerful enough. Even though dado stack is 'technically' not illegal in Europe, in practice they are. They would need special guarding in place that would meet HSE regs, does anyone know what that looks like, or seen anyone install such? And the saw blade must stop quickly when the machine is turned off (I think the new reg is within 6 seconds). The momentum of a heavy dado stack would breach that law. It is unlikely a CE labelled saw will ever be designed to take a dado. And how could a small hobby saw like the TS 200 be set up to make cross cutting of wide boards safely and accurately, to make a dado stack any use? I would just not worry about trying to source a saw that would take a dado, or waste time trying to overcome the safety issues. Or, as most likely just ignore the safety and take a big risk, for way is a tool that can be bettered with a plunge router or router table.
Mike.
transatlantic
Boom!
woodbrains":21g3k340 said:
What could be more efficient? the only thing I know of would be a router, and that takes several passes and arguably more of a hassle to setup and use.
woodbrains
Established Member
transatlantic":lfr2pq0d said:
Hello,
Arguably not one bit!
A guide bush in a plunge router, run in a tee square, simple as you can get. Just line the routed cut out in the jig with the layout marks an rout away. You might need 2 passes, but this is what plunge router is for, a seconds work. But housings are shallow, so probably not.
Now try putting housings in an oak board, 8 feet long 15 inches wide and 1 1/2 thick for a library shelf with a dado in a TS, with all the layout marks on the face. Oh and the housings need to be blind. Now use my simple jig..... They will do sliding dovetail housings too. It is a no brainer!
Mike.
Attachments
transatlantic
Boom!
Well to be fair, I was assuming the workpiece was managable on a table saw, which is a fair assumption, and you're adding complications which aren't always the case. But yes, in your specific scenario, a router would be easier.
memzey
Established Member
I frequently use a dado stack on my saw and wouldn't be without it. There are specific cases where other tools would be advantageous but focusing on them is misleading imho as you could easily come up with specific cases where the dado stack is much better than a router. I find the ability to control the width of the housing particularly useful as ply is seldom it's quoted thickness and solid wood can be whatever you want it to be. You do need the correct type of machine to use one though and the TS 200 doesn't fall into that category. A decent older machine like a Wadkin AGS10 would be a better fit.
woodbrains
Established Member
Hello,
Even if the piece was manageable, the board in the photo was, it took a minute to set that up for my reply. There is no case where a through housing is preferable to a stopped one, unless you can't do a stopped one because you are disadvantaging yourself with a dado head! Have you ever set up a stacked dado, tweaking the size with shims and making test cuts and the tweaking with different shins again......the hassle is worse to a dado head. Or you could by a micro adjustable one that costs about as much as the TS discussed in this thread and there is still the guarding issue, how to extract the dust, how to accurately move a board width wise on a TS without a super expensive sliding table. A crosscut sled? Just make a router jig and move the (light weight) tool to the work, and see what you are doing. And what about having the dado stack sharpened, every component all at once, to maintain the diameter, even if some parts are still sharp, expensive!
Trust me, I have been woodworking for over 3 decades and never missed or not been able to do something without a dado head.
Incidentally, in the USA where dado heads are common, plunge routers were not, until quite recently. Could partly explain why router cut housings are not done as much as the more dangerous dado stack.
Mike.
Even if the piece was manageable, the board in the photo was, it took a minute to set that up for my reply. There is no case where a through housing is preferable to a stopped one, unless you can't do a stopped one because you are disadvantaging yourself with a dado head! Have you ever set up a stacked dado, tweaking the size with shims and making test cuts and the tweaking with different shins again......the hassle is worse to a dado head. Or you could by a micro adjustable one that costs about as much as the TS discussed in this thread and there is still the guarding issue, how to extract the dust, how to accurately move a board width wise on a TS without a super expensive sliding table. A crosscut sled? Just make a router jig and move the (light weight) tool to the work, and see what you are doing. And what about having the dado stack sharpened, every component all at once, to maintain the diameter, even if some parts are still sharp, expensive!
Trust me, I have been woodworking for over 3 decades and never missed or not been able to do something without a dado head.
Incidentally, in the USA where dado heads are common, plunge routers were not, until quite recently. Could partly explain why router cut housings are not done as much as the more dangerous dado stack.
Mike.
memzey
Established Member
With all due respect setting up a dado stack needn't take much longer than a minute- even with shims. Test cuts would need to be done with the router as well given the nominal thickness of stock compared to the engineered thickness of the bit. Stopped housings are possible with a dado stack but need a few swipes with a chisel to square up (as do routed variants). As for cost - I paid about £115 for my stack which covers any thickness from 1/4" to 29/32" in .004" increments. Consider how much it would cost to purchase the equivalent tooling for a router from say Wealden (if they are all available). Safety is always a concern and no less so when using a router or router table. As with most things in life there is more than one way to skin a cat (we haven't even discussed use of a spindle moulder). You pays your money and you makes your choice. That being the case I find absolute terms like "always" and "never" in this context a bit unhelpful.
woodbrains
Established Member
memzey":1oz1e93i said:
Hello,
With equal respect, I have not said they shouldn't be used. What I did say is that there is always a tool which will perform the task a dado stack can, which is true. Absolutely true. And tools which are more commonly found in European workshops than dado stacks. So my point is, there is no point fretting over not having a saw capable of accepting one, or the safety issues surrounding their use or the advantages, and disadvantages in setting up them or an equivalent. If a saw will not take one, it is not a deal breaker and another saw need be found. It simply isn't an issue. I personally would prefer a saw with a brake, as much as I like old Wadkins. A modern saw with a break might have trouble with a dado.
Incidentally, an adjustable jig for a router is simple to make and negates and special sized router cutters.
I'd be interests in seeing somebody's dado setup that is guarded to HSE standards, so the law could be observed. I know this is a moot point in an amateur workshop, because no one will enforce it, but then we should be careful what others will do after reading advice here.
Mike.
memzey
Established Member
If that is what you meant Mike then I of course agree - there are other ways to cut housings and groves which when the user's circumstance is taken into account may be preferable. The bit I thought was too absolute was "There is ALWAYS another way to cut housings that is safer, more efficient and less of a hassle" which is obviously different and less agreeable than "there is always a tool which will perform the task a dado stack can".
Tealeaf
Established Member
Sorry to be dense then, but which bit of 'allowing people to consider all the options' do you disagree with? As a new reader of these forums I was somewhat disappointed to read your post as it seemed to be a fairly heavy-handed slap down of anyone considering a dado setup, hence my comment: I noted that we should be able to consider all the options. Your post clearly states anyone considering a dado setup is wrong. Others seem to disagree with you too, so I am wondering.......
I'm new on these forums and you are clearly not, so my apologies if there is some sort of seniority etiquette I am breaching by disagreeing with you, but I had assumed we were allowed to discuss options here?
I'm new on these forums and you are clearly not, so my apologies if there is some sort of seniority etiquette I am breaching by disagreeing with you, but I had assumed we were allowed to discuss options here?
MikeJhn":3dkoofqt said:
memzey
Established Member
Tealeaf- the first obstacle you have to overcome if you want to use a dado stack is finding a machine that will support it. As I mentioned above im afraid to say that the TS200 is not one of those. Unless you're going to import one yourself then the only new saws available in the UK that take dado stacks of which I am aware are the Felders and the machines sold by Woodford. Fortunately enough there are plenty of older saws that do support their use - the Wadkin AGS10 as mentioned above is solid and commonly found - but they consume more space and weigh a lot more than anything in the TS200 bracket. I have another model of old Wadkin and find that the extra weight is a positive in terms of stability and noise as my 'shed' can accommodate that no problem. Everyone's situation is a bit different though so you should think this through before you pull the trigger.
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