Another table saw thread! Panel Saw vs Table Saw

[fergusmacdonald]

Hey all, Merry Christmas.

I know this is another table saw thread, and my first post so hear me out.

I'm looking at getting a table saw. I've not had one before so this will be the biggest machine in my workshop. I have a good amount of space so size is not too much of an issue. I also have a relatively flexible budget but I want to make sure that I'm getting value for money - no point buying something I don't need. Plus, I'm going to need to get a dust collector and maybe some other machines down the line (bandsaw & planer/thicknesser).

About the saw. I really like the idea of a sliding table. Particularly a sliding table that sits right next to the blade. It just seems better. However, would appreciate some thoughts on pros/cons of that vs a solid top with a sliding table at the side.

I'd really like an accurate saw. Good mechanics (easy, reliable fences like cam locks instead of screws, good adjustments to blade, solid table - IE I'd like it to work well). Good dust collection would also be good. I will be doing a real mix of stuff. Some sheet goods, some hardwood. Probably no 8' boards, but 4' boards would be handy.

So, I've narrowed it down to 2 choices:

Record Power TS250 £1300
Axminster PS250 £1220

I read siggy_7's fantastic post about buying and setting up the Record. He also mentioned that he'd have bought an Axminster MJ12-1600 if he had the space. That model is discontinued and has been replaced by the PS315 (£2120). But, the PS250 is much closer in price to the Record. I can't find anything about the PS250 but Axminster seem to have an easy returns policy if it goes wrong. I'm in Edinburgh so 90+ miles to my nearest store to check it out before buying.

Appreciate any help/input. Some great advice on this forum and appreciated reading all the useful info so far. Thanks in advance.

 

[Bodgers]

What about the Jet JTS600 or the Scheppach Precisa 3.0 (Kity)?


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[fergusmacdonald]

What about the Jet JTS600 or the Scheppach Precisa 3.0 (Kity)?


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Jet is interesting but read a few people talking about how it's a good small saw and therefore since space is not an issue I disregarded it. It is more expensive than the Axminster and doesn't come with extension tables like the Aximinster.

I actually started off at the Scheppach 2 weeks ago! In the end because the sliding table doesn't run next to the blade I took it off my list.

 

[RobinBHM]

If your work is mostly cabinet type work, small section hardwoods and cutting of sheet material, a sliding table running next to the blade is the ultimate option. The prescision sliding track running past the blade means you can clamp all manner of jigs and get really precise cuts that would be hard to achieve with a solid top saw and outrigger table.

Panels saws are less ideal for constant heavy ripping of large boards, the sliding table gets in the way isnt as good a support as a solid top table, but then a bandsaw or rip saw is better than a dimension / table saw.

They do take a lot of space of course. A 1200mm slider will need about 3metre x 2metre working space

 

[deema]

I would definitely look at something like a Wadkin CP32 with sliding table and a scoring blade. Not only will it hold its value, but IMO it will outperform all but the most expensive new saw. You will be able to handle all sheet material, RIP and cross cut and have something that will last many lifetimes. For your budget, you will have your pick and change for a few new blades.

 

[Bodgers]

What about the Jet JTS600 or the Scheppach Precisa 3.0 (Kity)?


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Jet is interesting but read a few people talking about how it's a good small saw and therefore since space is not an issue I disregarded it. It is more expensive than the Axminster and doesn't come with extension tables like the Aximinster.

I actually started off at the Scheppach 2 weeks ago! In the end because the sliding table doesn't run next to the blade I took it off my list.

The Jet won't be that different in size to the Record Power. With the slider outrigger on it it's probably bigger.

I think the Jet being mentioned as small is a relative thing - for a slider taking a large panel is not big.

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[fergusmacdonald]

The Jet won't be that different in size to the Record Power. With the slider outrigger on it it's probably bigger.

I think the Jet being mentioned as small is a relative thing - for a slider taking a large panel is not big.

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Interesting. You think the jet is a better option than the record or Axminster?

 

[fergusmacdonald]

I would definitely look at something like a Wadkin CP32 with sliding table and a scoring blade. Not only will it hold its value, but IMO it will outperform all but the most expensive new saw. You will be able to handle all sheet material, RIP and cross cut and have something that will last many lifetimes. For your budget, you will have your pick and change for a few new blades.

Interesting. Any suggestions on where to find one?

 

[fergusmacdonald]

If your work is mostly cabinet type work, small section hardwoods and cutting of sheet material, a sliding table running next to the blade is the ultimate option. The prescision sliding track running past the blade means you can clamp all manner of jigs and get really precise cuts that would be hard to achieve with a solid top saw and outrigger table.

Panels saws are less ideal for constant heavy ripping of large boards, the sliding table gets in the way isnt as good a support as a solid top table, but then a bandsaw or rip saw is better than a dimension / table saw.

They do take a lot of space of course. A 1200mm slider will need about 3metre x 2metre working space

Nice to hear thanks. I sort of thought that but couldn't find much info comparing the two options.

 

[deema]

Wadkin panel saws seem to come up on eBay regularly and seen of late to be selling for a few hundred pounds. Astonishing value IMO.

 

[woodbrains]

Hello,

Both the saws you shortlist have the sliding table which rides right up to the saw blade, but do not have a scoring blade. In my opinion this is not good as it is very difficult, perhaps impossible to make a close tolerance throat plate for the blade, to eliminate splintering of the underside of sheet goods. I would either go for a more traditional cabinet saw with a sliding carriage, so a zero tolerance plate can be installed or pay the extra for the more expensive Axminster saw you mention, which has a scoring blade. TBH I don't know how good that saw is, it may well be OK but that money would by some superb old iron.

Mike.

 

[fergusmacdonald]

Hello,

Both the saws you shortlist have the sliding table which rides right up to the saw blade, but do not have a scoring blade. In my opinion this is not good as it is very difficult, perhaps impossible to make a close tolerance throat plate for the blade, to eliminate splintering of the underside of sheet goods. I would either go for a more traditional cabinet saw with a sliding carriage, so a zero tolerance plate can be installed or pay the extra for the more expensive Axminster saw you mention, which has a scoring blade. TBH I don't know how good that saw is, it may well be OK but that money would by some superb old iron.

Mike.

Great advice, thanks.

I like the idea of an old iron but no idea where to start. Seems to be lots of Sedgwick TA315 offers. Being in Edinburgh also makes it hard to see a saw before buying and would be hesitant buying a second hand saw without seeing it or knowing what to look for.

 

[custard]

I think of saws as falling into three categories,

Traditional table saw. Ideal for ripping because you can belly up to the machine and position yourself wherever is most efficient for any particular rip cut. Cross cutting requires a sled running in two mitre slots. A really well built sled is fine for smaller components, but guarding can get a bit involved and there are practical limits on how wide a piece you can comfortably or accurately cross cut. A badly built sled, or a sled that's warped or gone out of alignment, is just a giant exercise in frustration. Almost everyone I know who has based their workshop around a traditional table saw also has a whopping great SCMS, a radial arm saw, or a Festool MFT type arrangement for cross cutting.

Panel saw. Brilliant for dealing with sheet goods (especially with a scoring blade) and for cross cutting. Ripping is possible, but on many models it's physically awkward manoeuvring yourself around the overhang on the sliding table. There are some solutions to this, you can for example cramp the workpiece to the sliding table and rip that way, but that's a bit of a faff and some of the extras you might want to do this efficiently can run pretty expensive. Go to about 36 minutes in on this video and you'll get some idea of ripping with a slider,

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eV8A3XK3R0I&t=4688s

Almost everyone I know with a panel saw (myself included) also has a bandsaw and/or a track saw, and we generally end up doing a high percentage of our ripping using these machines instead.

Hybrid saw. I'd class the Sedgwick TA315 as a hybrid, it tries to get the best of best worlds by having a slider, but instead of the slider being right alongside the blade it's about a foot away. Ask yourself a question, if this arrangement is such a good solution then why aren't all saws built this way? The answer is because that one foot off-set brings a lot of issues, any panel or cross cut workpiece will be dragging on the saw table and that one foot gap introduces a lot of leverage that can cause inaccuracies or throw out the machine settings. Hands up, I've never used that particular Sedgwick saw but I have used others of the same design, and I really didn't get along with them. It's only my personal opinion, but you should be clear what is it you'll mainly be making. Joinery type operations with a lot of solid timber ripping? Then get a traditional table saw...plus an SCMS or radial arm saw! Furniture and sheet goods work? Then get a panel saw...plus a band saw or a track saw!

Good luck!

 

[Bodgers]

The Jet won't be that different in size to the Record Power. With the slider outrigger on it it's probably bigger.

I think the Jet being mentioned as small is a relative thing - for a slider taking a large panel is not big.

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Interesting. You think the jet is a better option than the record or Axminster?

I own neither, so I can't say...

I have seen the Jet though and had a brief play.


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[Bodgers]

I know recommending 'Old iron' is common here (benefits being presumably being the mass of the thing providing low vibration, stability etc. plus consistent accuracy).

But... to someone that has never owned a Tablesaw, is it really wise to recommend this route?

I am seeing plenty of old Wadkins etc. on eBay without riving knifes and safety features of modern saws, without even getting into restoring or have the knowledge to know how a 40+ year old Tablesaw should be cutting etc.



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[fergusmacdonald]

@custard - great contribution, thank you. That was exactly the type of summary I was looking for and couldn't find. I will be mainly furniture and boards so leaning towards the panel saw as originally posted. I will have some ripping but have to compromise somewhere. Great video you linked to as well, very useful to see it in action.
I already have a SCMS but it's cheap and not very accurate which is part of why I want a better quality saw - accurate crosscuts and mitres.

@Bodgers appreciate the advice and sort of agree. I love the idea of an old machine and am fairly mechanical so I could probably work out what I need to know. However it wouldn't be easy and I'm not sure what I'd be looking for. Perhaps better as a stage 2 rather than a stage 1.

 

[fergusmacdonald]

Noticed a couple of differences between these models which are possibly important.

1. Record is direct drive, Axminster is belt drive. Despite that, Record has greater depth of cut on same size blade.
2. Record parallel fence can be adjusted front to back so you can adjust it to only sit fore of the blade. Useful as a stop for crosscutting. Also, it can be fitted in a "high" or "low" fitting so you can more easily get access to thin or small stock.
3. As mentioned elsewhere you can't change the blade on the record without taking the sliding table off or cutting a notch in it. Not sure yet whether you can do that with Axminster.

 

[heimlaga]

The saw on my Stenberg combination machine has a sliding table mounted some 20 cm away from the blade.
Elsewhere I have used Altendorf and other big panel saws with the sliding table up against the blade.

My oppinion is that on a small panel saw the sliding table cannot be built solid enough to provide a decent support for heavy ripping. Hence I think a small saw is better off with an easily removable sliding table some 20-30 cm away from the blade and a solid tabe to support ripping.
On a big saw the sliding table can be built solid enough and hence it can extend all the way to the blade which is a more versatile syustem.

In the old versus new debate I can just tell about the way I went.
My first machines were all either old or homemade and when I have upgraded I have also bought old machines in bad condition and rebuilt them. I have never felt the need of learning to use a new machine before rebuilding and using an old one.
However I have two factors in my life which make things easier.
-I grew up in the country around machinery and handy people. I started driving tractor at age 6. Massey-Ferguson 35 without power steering. At age 6 I was just heavy enough to press down the clutch pedal with all my weight. It has always been a natural part of everyday life in my family to repair everything and repairs must be made to very high standards not to be frowned upon by friends and family who could do it better so thorough research and knowledge are also a natural part of everyday life.
-I went through a one year vocational school course in joinery when I was 19 so I have some memories of how industrial machines are supposed to be used and how they are supposed to work.
Unfortunately everyone don't have theese two factors working in their favour and unfortunatelt everyone doesn't have time enough for repairing an old machine.

To me both your alternatives sound like bad ones.
It must not be too difficult to change the blade and the fence must slide front to back to allow for safe cutting of tennon shoulders.

I am also a firm proponent of overarm blade guards. This because a low riving knife and an overarm guard can be left in place during almost all operations. As our then old now dead vocational school techer put it: A guard that har to be removed for operatuing the machine should immediately be throuwn in a dumpster and replaced with a guard of better design.

 

[Doug71]

I was in Axminster today comparing their PS250 with the Jet JTS600 as I am after a small panel saw.

A big difference is that the PS250 looks like it can crosscut a full 4ft sheet on the sliding table but the Jet only about 2ft.

The PS250 does not have a short fence for ripping but the profile of the fence is the same as their other saws eg AW10 which has a sliding fence addition for ripping. This short fence can be bought as a spare part and the PS250 fence is already drilled to take it.

The PS250 makes the Jet look a bit dated.

Worth going in store to buy as they offered to throw in an extra blade for me, you won't get that if you buy it from them online.

Doug

 

[paulrockliffe]

It's worth bearing in mind with 8' x 4' sheets that if the merchant you use will cut the sheets to a cutting list for you, there's not a lot of point in paying for that ability for a lot of us. Obviously you lose a bit of flexibility, though a plunge saw and track can make up for a good bit of that.

I don't know what other merchants are like, but I email cutting lists to mine and can collect same day if necessary. The machine they have is an utter beast and no way I'll ever be able to afford something anywhere near as good. All their cuts have been bang on accurate too, so no issues there either.