352 has arrived: good news and bad news....

[johnbs]

Let's start with the good: it arrived on the day specified. Bought off E-bay; described as "Refurbished to a high standard. Needs a minor amount of work to tidy up the electrics." Well, that's OK, I'm an elec. engineer.

There are several issue-ettes:

All the interlocks are missing (all electrical components and some mechanical)

One of the four main cover screws is present

The blade, when set to run/track say 3mm from the front edge of the lower wheel, runs 5mm from the front of the top wheel. (Is this important?)

There's quite a lot of crude (metal) embedded in the lower tyre.

Guide issues:

The faces of both thrust rods are grooved, the lower in particular

Because (I suspect) the lower thrust- rod is now too short, the lower guide is skewed: (side view)

The upper guide-blocks were set with the RH one touching but parallel-to the blade. The LH side had been set and run for some time with the tip only in contact:

Now, as I'm new to band-saws, I'm not sure about the precise "norms" for descriptions, but I don't think I'd describe this as "Refurbished to high standard"? Am I being too picky? Do I need to replace the guide block or will it be OK with the tip bevelled off? Advice much appreciated. (Also where do people purchase spares: Startrite quoted some eye-watering prices for the individual guide blocks. )
:? [/img]

PS is there supposed to be a brush somewhere which removed crud from the blade (as opposed to the lower tyre?)

 

[Digit]

Certainly not what I would call a high standard John.

Roy.

 

[WoodAddict]

the brush on mine is at around 7-8 o'clock on the lower wheel (different make though). Doesn't look a high standard on viewing those pics, but surely it's down to performance thats more important. how does it perform?

 

[jasonB]

I'd put a new sharp blade in it before seeing how it cuts, that one looks worn and too high a tpi for most things.

The metal in teh botton tyre is probably swarf from using teh saw to cut aluminium, a wire brush should shift most of it.

Would not worry too much about the position of the blede on teh top and bottom wheels a slong as it tracks true and stays on teh wheels.

Jason

 

[OPJ]

I'd say the alignment issues are "reasonable", as the saw could've been knocked about a bit during transit. You should also be able to sort those out yourself. Apart from that, they really are taking the p**s!! Have you contacted them about this? What's their feedback score? Are you prepared to name and shame them??? :twisted:

Clearly, your photos illustrate that certain areas have not been reconditioned at all.

 

[beech1948]

I've had a 352 for 10 yrs bought 2nd hand.

1) Guides are not too rough in your picture. The triangle shaped guides are good and can be dressed using a "scary sharp" sort of process.

2) They need to be adjusted though. I usually do this by putting a strip of 100 gsm office paper round the blade, butting the guides up to the blade, tighten the guides up ( gently) and then remove the paper. Mine run well.

3) The guides do need to be parallel and not just a corner rubbing against the blade.

4) The above is true for top and bottom.

5) The rear blade guide with the slot in it can be replaced from ALT Saws and Spares....http://www.altsawsandspares.co.uk .....they are a bit pricey but may be cheaper than Startrite.

6) Electrical interlocks. I would operate without them on the doors.

7) Not much of a refurb though. Your machine was in much worse condition then mine was. Maybe time to ask for money back or stop the credit card payment.

regards
Alan

 

[paulm]

I wouldn't say it has been refurbished at all, let alone to a high standard !

It has had some hard use by the looks of it, but they are very simple and robust machines and there is nothing there that should really affect the performance of the machine to any great extent hopefully.

Change the blade as Jason says and see how it performs. If it cuts okay then perhaps spring for a new lower thrust rod. I wouldn't worry about the worn guide, just adjust it so that the bulk of the guide is in position close to the blade and that should be fine.

If you paid a premium price for the machine on the basis of being refurbed to a high standard I think you would have a clear case to complain and reject it, but if you got it for a good price then it is probably worth see'ing how it goes performance wise.

Cheers, Paul

 

[johnbs]

Thanks for all the advice and tips guys.

Here's quick update after stripping the guides and having a better look:

1. The bottom guide side "blocks" can both be made to touch the blade, but one has a ridge at the back due to many hours of use with the back of the blade forward of the back of the guide.

2. The (grooved) thrust rod was pressing on the back of the blade, and I think this account(ed) for most of the 2mm running error between the upper & lower wheels. It's now pretty much the same.

3. I can't get the face of the upper guide LH side-block to touch the blade. (This was the one which was rotated so the tip was in contact: obviously for that reason). I've araldited a 1/32" Tufnol shim on the face, but it still won't reach . Apart from some wear, I think the issue is that the centre-line of the top guide assembly appears to be slightly to the right of the blade axis when viewed from the working (tooth) side). So, if there was more adjustment and I could move the block across to within 100gsm thickness, the blade would not run across the centre-line of the thrust rod. As originally set, the RH block was being used to "push" the blade central to the thrust-rod.

Yes, it's a metal-cutting blade: looks a bit like a coarse hacksaw blade. The metal crud buried in the lower wheel does look like ali swarf. The blade appears to be plumb to the table in both directions.

I'm wondering if there is an adjustment in the upper wheel-housing to set the angle of the upper-guide support-rod (to cure the off-centre issue)?

The saw cost £315 + delivery. I do intend the buy new blades once I'm confident the machine is OK.

John

 

[big soft moose]

Thanks for all the advice and tips guys.

Here's quick update after stripping the guides and having a better look:

1. The bottom guide side "blocks" can both be made to touch the blade, but one has a ridge at the back due to many hours of use with the back of the blade forward of the back of the guide.

2. The (grooved) thrust rod was pressing on the back of the blade, and I think this account(ed) for most of the 2mm running error between the upper & lower wheels. It's now pretty much the same.

3. I can't get the face of the upper guide LH side-block to touch the blade. (This was the one which was rotated so the tip was in contact: obviously for that reason). I've araldited a 1/32" Tufnol shim on the face, but it still won't reach . Apart from some wear, I think the issue is that the centre-line of the top guide assembly appears to be slightly to the right of the blade axis when viewed from the working (tooth) side). So, if there was more adjustment and I could move the block across to within 100gsm thickness, the blade would not run across the centre-line of the thrust rod. As originally set, the RH block was being used to "push" the blade central to the thrust-rod.

Yes, it's a metal-cutting blade: looks a bit like a coarse hacksaw blade. The metal crud buried in the lower wheel does look like ali swarf. The blade appears to be plumb to the table in both directions.

I'm wondering if there is an adjustment in the upper wheel-housing to set the angle of the upper-guide support-rod (to cure the off-centre issue)?

The saw cost £315 + delivery. I do intend the buy new blades once I'm confident the machine is OK.

John

£315 is a good price for a 352 assuming you can overcome the niggles and there arent any other as yet unknown problems lurking to ambush you.

but i agree with the others , i wouldnt describe that as "reconditioned to a high standard" - "bodged and buggered" would be a more accurate summation - tho you cant really blame them for not putting that on their ebay listing

 

[misterfish]

I've just been out to look at my 352.

First the rear bearing thrust rods - they shoul have a hardened metal component brazed onto the front and it is normal to rotate the rod if it wears a bit. Your wear looks excessive and maybe the tips are missing. As for the bearing blocks - the lateral movement is limited by the square section immediately under the bolt head - maybe the bolts you have are larger replacements and the square bit filed down to allow it to slide into the slot - in essence giving a rectangle shape that has the wider dimension parallel to the table stopping the bearing block getting close enough to the blade. maybe when somebody was adjusting it many moons ago they lost the proper bolt and bodged a repair.

Below are a few piccies I took including the components of my spare set of bearing blocks.

Let me know if you want any more pictures of would like me to measure anything

Misterfish

 

[Steve Maskery]

The blade, when set to run/track say 3mm from the front edge of the lower wheel, runs 5mm from the front of the top wheel. (Is this important?)

No. As long as it tracks properly that is all that matters.

There's quite a lot of crud (metal) embedded in the lower tyre.

Yes there is, but I wouldn't have thought it would affect performance that much. You are losing a small amount of traction, I suppose.

Guide issues:

The faces of both thrust rods are grooved, the lower in particular

Because (I suspect) the lower thrust- rod is now too short, the lower guide is skewed: (side view)

In this picture, the guides are set too far back. They should come up to, but not interfere with, the teeth, to give max support. If they were adjusted properly, the thrust rod would be better positioned. But are you saying that there is no adjustment of position for the thrust rod? If so, that doesn't sound right to me.

The upper guide-blocks were set with the RH one touching but parallel-to the blade. The LH side had been set and run for some time with the tip only in contact:

Now actually that isn't a problem. The blade can't twist or be deflected. It should be possible to get them adjusted better though.

Now, as I'm new to band-saws, I'm not sure about the precise "norms" for descriptions, but I don't think I'd describe this as "Refurbished to high standard"?

Neither would I.

Am I being too picky?

No.

Do I need to replace the guide block or will it be OK with the tip bevelled off? Advice much appreciated.

If it were mine, I'd install a completely new guide and thrust arrangement, to be honest. That looks very poor to me.

PS is there supposed to be a brush somewhere which removed crud from the blade (as opposed to the lower tyre?)

No.

Cheers
Steve

 

[Mike H]

This bandsaw was seriously abused, heavily used and has not had a cent spent on it refurbishing.

Short of getting your money back, which you must do if the wheels are not adjustable in a flattish plane, change as much of the guide setup as you can, because as I said in my pm, this is a cracking good saw potentially and is worth spending another £100 on. The hardened thrust rod would be a priority as the present worn one has bent the whole assembly by the look of it.

If you leave all this metal on the wheels the tyres won't last long and don't work Oak until you do clean it up.

Best of luck

Mike


8)

 

[big soft moose]

just a random thought - would a powerful magnet be any good for picking up the rubbish off the tyres - i assume it is steel swarf

 

[johnbs]

Thanks for all the guidance, chaps.

To answer a few questions & provide more info:

1. I think the stuff buried in the lower wheel is mainly aluminium swarf

2. With the thrust-rods "backed off" to allow the blade to find it's own position, the wheel alignment does appear to be OK.

3. The blade currently fitted is 3/4" x 0.036" thick, and I do wonder if it's intrinsic "stiffness" causes it to bow out to the right (as viewed from the normal operating position). This may account for the blade not running centrally across the top thrust-rod. ??

4. The way the guides are assembled is best illustrated by showing an extract from Startrite's parts list:

The large washer "8" which supports the bracket (144) sits only on the thrust-rod (not the vertical post 146), and the entire sandwich is clamped by the top nut/washer 3,6. So, if the rod 147 doesn't poke out the back of the vertical post far enough, the washer has poor rear support, and the washer+ bracket are canted backwards, as shown in my original pics.

Misterfish's photos show what it should look like (many thanks). I think my lower thrust-rod is too short (and Mike H agrees). The only other explanation is that both my wheels are set too far out (i.e towards the operator) from the chassis. The tips of the thrust-rods are carbide-discs.

A complete set of guides from ALT is around £100.

5. The blade speed on High is 4000ft/min. Is this about right for ripping hardwood with, say, a 3tpi blade? I've seen another 352 manual which uses a 1500 rpm motor and specifies a lower blade velocity of 3000ft/min.

John

 

[paulm]

Not sure I would go for a complete set of guides John, would a new thrust rod not suffice and see how you go from there, with a new blade as well of course ?

Cheers, Paul

 

[flh801978]

So what exactly has the seller done to refurbish it?
The listing on ebay suggests it had been done but the bed looks rusty in his ad.
Have you spoken about a partial refund to fund teh work needed?
Ian

 

[johnbs]

Ian:

I think the story probably runs as follows:
- Someone did refurb the machine at some point, as the set-screws, nuts, washers etc. are newish and rust-free. The chassis and covers have been professionally re-sprayed grey. The refurb person then used it solidly (I'm speculating) with the same HSS blade (and no guide adjustment) to cut metal. Then sold to the E-bay chap.
- the E-bay seller seems to be basically an honest guy who had bought the machine, used it a few times "as received" over a period of months/years, but never delved inside for a good sniff round. Decided to sell because he wasn't using it enough.
- he's agreed to a partial refund, which will go a good way to paying for a new set of guide blocks.
- the table needs to be cleaned as it's marked with what I'd say are multiple coffee-cup stands.

I'm currently wondering whether to buy a couple of 14" wheels, as someone is currently selling them NoS on E-bay.

John