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PostPosted: 14 Dec 2017, 14:14 
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Thicker tenons seems fine to me.

Might be a bit more effort with a 24mm mortice instead of the 18mm.


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PostPosted: 14 Dec 2017, 20:49 
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NickN wrote:
my proposed change is to make the tenon 24mm thick ...
... seems like about the best compromise, and matches my chisel size.

You have a 24mm chisel? That seems an odd size. What is the story behind that? What sort of chisel is it? (A mortise chisel or something else?)


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PostPosted: 15 Dec 2017, 06:45 
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Just4Fun wrote:
NickN wrote:
my proposed change is to make the tenon 24mm thick ...
... seems like about the best compromise, and matches my chisel size.

You have a 24mm chisel? That seems an odd size. What is the story behind that? What sort of chisel is it? (A mortise chisel or something else?)

I also have a 24mm chisel. Quite a few metric sets include one that size, including the Aldi/Lidl ones.


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PostPosted: 17 Dec 2017, 16:34 
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That's interesting. I have never seen a 24mm chisel. All the sets I have seen have a 25mm chisel, not 24mm. I did have a look in a store when I was browsing yesterday, to check if I was simply out of date, but the sets I saw had 25mm chisels, and even the individual tools on offer didn't include a 24mm.
I can't think of anything I have ever done that would make a 24mm better or worse than a 25mm, so I do wonder why some sets have changed in the UK and apparently not here. What am I missing?


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PostPosted: 17 Dec 2017, 17:09 
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I'm guessing that 24mm must be used at least in Germany too, as that's where my chisel set came from, but yes, it is a strange choice by the manufacturer, rather than 25mm. Be that as it may, it's what I have so am using it. :mrgreen:

Made some further progress today, finished the planing and squaring of the rails and started on marking the legs for mortise cutting. I've decided to do the first leg completely by hand with chisel only, and see how long it takes.
A further modification to the tenons too - the original design uses full width lower rail tenons of around 6 inches / 150mm, which even with my substantially bulked up thickness of 24mm is still proportionally a bit wide, plus it has no edge shoulders. So I've revised my design to a 5 inch / 125mm width tenon on the bottom rail (rail is around 6 1/2 inches, so it leaves a 3/4 inch or 18mm shoulder each side) and a 4 inch tenon on the top rail plus a 1 inch haunch (which again is missing from the latest design video on Paul Sellers' website, but is shown as optional in the plans).

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PostPosted: 18 Dec 2017, 12:22 
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Just4Fun wrote:
so I do wonder why some sets have changed in the UK and apparently not here. What am I missing?

It's metric, innit.... 3mm = roughly 1/8", so 6mm, 12mm, 24mm.
I notice Euro and Japanese chisel sets seem to do that, which then matches up to the milimetre measurements of various motice locks, hinges, swivel plates and so on, these days.


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PostPosted: 18 Dec 2017, 12:59 
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That makes no sense - 25mm is closer to an inch than 24mm is and 13mm is closer to half an inch than 12mm is.


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PostPosted: 18 Dec 2017, 13:39 
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But 19mm is almost exactly 3/4 inch and yet all sets have an 18mm chisel...

I can see the logic, kind of, as it would be rather odd to go by what is closest and have 6mm -- 13mm -- 19mm -- 25mm, the spacing is inconsistent, and a '1/2 inch' chisel would be more than double the '1/4 inch' chisel.

So I guess Powerfix thought, well if a '1/2 inch' chisel is 12mm then let's double it...

I'm cursed to be old enough to have been influenced heavily by imperial but young enough to have been taught metric at school, and it does my head in, I end up using both most of the time as I cannot VISUALISE anything in metric, but I struggle to CALCULATE anything in imperial... Grrr.. (hammer) :oops:


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PostPosted: 18 Dec 2017, 14:00 
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Yeah - I forgot the 18mm.

I can quite honestly say I've never thought about the actual dimensions of a chisel - I just pick up something the right size.


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PostPosted: 18 Dec 2017, 14:04 
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phil.p wrote:
That makes no sense - 25mm is closer to an inch than 24mm is and 13mm is closer to half an inch than 12mm is.

But starting from roughly 1/8" at 3mm and going up in multiples of 3mm increments, like the Japanese chisels do: "The set of 10 includes 3, 6, 9, 12, 15, 18, 24, 30, 36 and 42mm chisels"

A single scale of numbers is easier and more straightforward for most people, than counting fractions of an inch and comparing halves, quarters, eighths, sixteenths and thirty-seconds.
I actually have a little chart showing 1-8 eighths, with the milimetre on one side and the quarter inch equivalents on the other for my chisels.

I tend to visualise things in imperial, but measure in metric... and get really thrown out when wood shopping for an easy round number of 3x2" (because I measured in feet), but have to buy what they call 75x50mm, which is actually more like 62x37mm anyway... I'm easy to spot - I'm the one in the corner counting on my fingers!


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PostPosted: 18 Dec 2017, 15:52 
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NickN wrote:
I'm cursed to be old enough to have been influenced heavily by imperial but young enough to have been taught metric at school, and it does my head in, I end up using both most of the time as I cannot VISUALISE anything in metric, but I struggle to CALCULATE anything in imperial... Grrr.. (hammer) :oops:


I'm glad I've never had to deal with imperial measurements (with the exception of miles - which also needs to go so we can work out fuel consumption more easily). It's the fractional maths that's the killer.


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PostPosted: 18 Dec 2017, 16:03 
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I would find metric easier if people could resist using bl00dy centimetres. As Nick - I can't visualise or estimate in metric. If someone's six foot three I know they're quite tall, if the they're one metre eighty three or whatever I have no idea whether they are tall or short without actually converting it back to imperial. We should have gone metric lock stock and barrel on 17/2/71 (as Australia did when its currency went metric)......... or not bothered at all, apparently it was understood at the time that the USA would change, otherwise we probably wouldn't have.
^^^^ miles or even kilometers per litre are absolutely meaningless to me. :D


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PostPosted: 18 Dec 2017, 16:32 
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So, amidst all the chatting about chisels and metric stuff, I actually spent some time in the workshop working on my first ever mortises today... and have to say I'm quite happy with the result. First one took about an hour, second one about half that, and I'm in no rush anyway, for me the hobby is as much about simply relaxing and doing something practical as it is about actually finishing anything.

Now the hardened old-timers may chuckle, but I was ridiculously happy when the reverse side 'tunnelling' of that first mortise actually met up dead straight with the face side excavations! Such simple pleasures but for me it's what it's all about, particularly having got to middle age and never having had the chance even while at school to try woodworking.


First ever mortise well underway:

Image


Breakthrough - it lines up!

Image


Second mortise - already looks much tidier than the first:

Image


And a finished first leg, with haunch housing also created:

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PostPosted: 19 Dec 2017, 00:12 
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well done! I noticed that with each tenon you cut it gets faster and easier, looks really good so far

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PostPosted: 19 Dec 2017, 07:13 
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Great start there Nick. Nice and neat.

You planning to do the same for the others now that you've got it down?

Have you decided how to do the tenons? Will you try splitting?

With regard to imperial and metric. I'm one of the few in my age group (32) it seems that can deal with both. While we were only taught metric at school my dad would always talk in imperial at home. We're not helped by everyone still weighing babies in lbs (though they are actually weight in g and everyone converts them just so that they can tell their mum/aunt how much it weighs lol), using miles on the road and feet for height! I wonder what the govt will do when 100% of the people alive in the UK were only ever taught metric at school.


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