Spindle Moulder Advice

[ColeyS1]

So you'd only need one cutter and any suitable shaped/weight balancer?

If you it was always something you did a lot could you buy ebay no 151426381912 and get someone to wang a groove in it they cut,grind tinker to your hearts content :|

 

[RogerS]

So you'd only need one cutter and any suitable shaped/weight balancer?

If you it was always something you did a lot could you buy ebay no 151426381912 and get someone to wang a groove in it they cut,grind tinker to your hearts content :|

But you still have to shell out for all those plates to make up the block to the profile of the cutter. Think 'laminated' block.

Looking at that eBay link seems to me you're simply making work for yourself. One cutter also doesn't give you a very good finish, does it?

 

[ColeyS1]

So you'd only need one cutter and any suitable shaped/weight balancer?

If you it was always something you did a lot could you buy ebay no 151426381912 and get someone to wang a groove in it they cut,grind tinker to your hearts content :|

But you still have to shell out for all those plates to make up the block to the profile of the cutter. Think 'laminated' block.

Looking at that eBay link seems to me you're simply making work for yourself. One cutter also doesn't give you a very good finish, does it?

So longs the cutters sharp it'll cut fine - that's how we all managed for years before the new regulations.
Legally Could I use one pinned cutter in a euro block so longs I used a power feed ? I'm getting more and more confused :lol:

 

[Jacob]

... One cutter also doesn't give you a very good finish, does it?

One works really well - better than two cutters which don't exactly match. Even if they do match, reducing the feed speed would give a good finish with just one.

The Armadillo block looks interesting - it tackles the basic prob of the new regs i.e. they seriously curtail the creative possibilities of the spindle moulder. It would be brilliant to have the freedom and ease of use of a home made french cutter, and a good level of safety.

I imagine it's only a matter of time before tool makers satisfy this need and we are back to an era of cheap effective spindle moulding.

 

[RogerS]

......
Legally Could I use one pinned cutter in a euro block so longs I used a power feed ? I'm getting more and more confused :lol:

No... see Peter's post further on up (unless you're Jacob who has his own set of rules and is above the law) .

 

[Jacob]

......
These regulations do not apply to Jacob as he uses his ego and self believe to push the timber through the machine.....

No, wrong again - I use two long push sticks and my hands are in no danger whatsoever. The push sticks take all the punishment if anything goes wrong. I don't know why you find this so difficult to understand.
I also am keen on the hands-up reflex - you train yourself (mainly by reading the accident horror stories) to back off hands-up at the slightest sign of things going wrong, rather than trying to grab and control the workpiece. Ditto with a TS.
I see it rather like feeding a wild animal - you don't let your hands get in range of the teeth and be prepared to step back sharpish!

These two safety measures together just about eliminate the main cause of spindle and TS accidents i.e. accidental hand contact.
I can see why they aren't attractive - too simple and low tech for the gadget men and tool sellers. Perhaps there would be scope for making money from cheap consumable soft ply push sticks? Not everybody wants to make their own.

 

[rhrwilliams]

If its illegal to use non limited cutters / blocks , then why do shops sell them ? Is it perhaps because the HSE regulations apply strictly to workplace activities, e.g the regulations only actually apply to commercial activities. For example the CDM regs do not apply on domestic projects.

Thus is Jacob wants to use push sticks and non limited cutters thats his choice and perfectly ok, provided its outside the commercial domain . However, if he employed a person and did not follow the guidance he would be in contravention of the HSE guidance and his operation / workshop could be shut down by the HSE, or worse fined / sued for bad practices. Additionally, as a employee if I was harmed I would be in my right to sue Jacob for not providing a safe manor in which to work (providing the HSE guidance was explicit on the use of limiters etc).

There are many a construction firm who have ended up in court with the HSE for things like this (breaching H&S on construction sites, scaffold collapses , near data misses etc etc etc etc) However, if its a home workshop being used solely by one person , these regs clearly don't apply !

 

[rhrwilliams]

Or is it that they are sold to be used with power feeds etc ? and by the way the above was a question really, not me telling everyone what the rules were !

 

[RogerS]

Almost, rhrw.

I can't see quite how shops could differentiate TBH. You have the pinned Euroblock and it can take a pair of cutters and a pair of limiters. Cutters and limiters are bought usually separately from the block supplier or as is more often the case, you already have a block and need a new set of cutters/limiters. It''s perfectly legitimate to just use cutters but in the right machine (interlocks etc).

The law applies to employers, employees and self-employed. Even if you are a hobbyist but then use your machine to make something that you then sell on then technically you are also covered by the regulations. The only exception to this is if you are Jacob Butler in which case PUWER regulations, the laws of physics and reaction times do not apply.

I always thought, until reading Peter Sefton's post above, that you were OK with a power feed. Not so.

 

[ColeyS1]

......
Legally Could I use one pinned cutter in a euro block so longs I used a power feed ? I'm getting more and more confused :lol:

No... see Peter's post further on up (unless you're Jacob who has his own set of rules and is above the law) .

No need for the rudeness :shock:
Haven't had chance to read the whole thread yet. I was only trying to figure it out so if asked I could pass on the right info

 

[Jacob]

...........the laws of physics and reaction times do not apply.......

Whats this got to do with it? Reaction times don't come into it as far as I'm concerned - the hands-up reflex is about moving away (however slowly) rather than moving towards.

Instead of blathering on offensively with feeble attempts at sarcasm why not explain what is wrong with my safety measures? You don't really add anything constructive to these threads - have a go at saying something interesting for a change.

 

[RogerS]

......
Legally Could I use one pinned cutter in a euro block so longs I used a power feed ? I'm getting more and more confused :lol:

No... see Peter's post further on up (unless you're Jacob who has his own set of rules and is above the law) .

No need for the rudeness :shock:
Haven't had chance to read the whole thread yet. I was only trying to figure it out so if asked I could pass on the right info

Coley...nothing aimed at you....when you read the whole thread you will see how the exasperation comes about.

 

[RobinBHM]

Does anybody know what interlocked guards are, and whether they are used on spindle moulders? -I understand they need to be interlocked movable guards and/or self-closing guards

Jacob: I think you are just playing devils advocate to make us all be more aware of safety, in reality you've got a workshop stacked floor to ceiling with compliant tooling and thousands of limiters

Seriously though this thread has made me think more about safety on the spindle moulder and I need to improve training in the workshop on this and other machines.

 

[Jacob]

Does anybody know what interlocked guards are, and whether they are used on spindle moulders? -I understand they need to be interlocked movable guards and/or self-closing guards

Jacob: I think you are just playing devils advocate to make us all be more aware of safety, in reality you've got a workshop stacked floor to ceiling with compliant tooling and thousands of limiters

Seriously though this thread has made me think more about safety on the spindle moulder and I need to improve training in the workshop on this and other machines.

I've got both, compliant and non compliant.
I keep asking what is wrong with my safety system outlined above but nobody has come up with an answer so far (except "rules is rules" etc. which is a bit feeble to say the least)
I use the same with compliant safety cutters too - these could give you a very nasty cut and I not sure that they would save a finger in many circumstances. Not safe enough - I'm safer my way.

 

[RogerS]

Does anybody know what interlocked guards are, and whether they are used on spindle moulders? -I understand they need to be interlocked movable guards and/or self-closing guards

Can't answer that, Robin, but for me (and many others) using limiters obviates the need for anything more complicated!
...

Seriously though this thread has made me think more about safety on the spindle moulder and I need to improve training in the workshop on this and other machines.

Power feed and false fences work for me! In my early days of using the spindle moulder, I've had a couple of 'brown-trouser' moments. The first was when I stupidly (and as Peter Sefton admirably pointed out in an earlier post is not a good idea) used a push stick between guard and cutter. Luckily for me the kickback from the pushstick merely bruised the fleshy bit of my palm by the thumb and not sent spearing its way through my forearm....ouch!

The second was when I was using the tenoning table and had a backer piece not clamped properly. The backer piece was ripped out of its location by the cutter and fired out the back of the extraction port, through the extraction hose and embedded into the plasterboard.

 

[Peter Sefton]

Does anybody know what interlocked guards are, and whether they are used on spindle moulders? -I understand they need to be interlocked movable guards and/or self-closing guards

Jacob: I think you are just playing devils advocate to make us all be more aware of safety, in reality you've got a workshop stacked floor to ceiling with compliant tooling and thousands of limiters

Seriously though this thread has made me think more about safety on the spindle moulder and I need to improve training in the workshop on this and other machines.

Interlocked guards are not usually found on spindle moulders, more akin to four sided planers and the like. These machine have interlocked guards (hoods that mean the machine will not work without the hood in place) When the hood is in place you are no where near the cutters and cannot come into contact with them. These machines can use none limited cutters and tooling without pins or other holding devices that stop cutters coming out.

The use of push sticks and power feeds does not mean that "Whitehill" style blocks without limiters or pins can be used on spindle moulders as the power feed can just be swung out of the way and the user is now exposed to the danger. The idea is to make it fool proof (as we know they are plenty of fools around)

Someone may wish to contact the HSE to see if they know better than the regs, or try Didac in Bristol they ran the HSE training earlier this month and are on the advisory committee for the HSE.

I would be interested to see if I have been wrong for years, I did also undertake some specific update training with Didac in house about 10 years ago to ensure the College I worked at was compliant.

http://didac.co.uk The boss is John sorry I can't remember his surname. They may be able to help but may wish paying for their advice as people who teach normally do.

It is the responsability of users or read the regs as have been signposted several times over this thread, the other option is for us to forward this thread to the HSE and see if they wish to make comment on the actions of none compliance.

 

[Jacob]

.....
It is the responsability of users or read the regs as have been signposted several times over this thread, the other option is for us to forward this thread to the HSE and see if they wish to make comment on the actions of none compliance.

Yes why not?
As I understand it the rules which apply to me are advisory and it clearly states that alternative safety procedures may be acceptable.
My procedures even without limiters are safer than hand-fed processes with limiters. My hands are always well away from the cutters except when the machine is switched off, which is the weakest link - special attention needed here and a good brake on the spindle etc.

 

[blackrodd]

Rodders, I ment, do you know where you can get the cutter to fit the spindle that will cut that type of beading (or what number it is), I'm a little lost with the thousands available !

Thanks

Sorry for the delay, I've been involved in hand to hand combat whilst Christmas shopping today!
I can't even remember the name of that beading.
I daresay one of the members has a source of cutters and may be able to steer you to it.
contact the cutter supplier and see if he has what you are after.
Sorry I can't be any more helpful.
Regards Rodders

 

[doctor Bob]

I keep asking what is wrong with my safety system outlined above ....................

Are you meaning to repeat yourself or is it old age? Pop down the Doc's and get one of those memory tests, it seems to be getting worse as the years go by, you must be banging on close to the big ton now :lol:

 

[rhrwilliams]

Someone has already posted a link to a cutter that looks good enough for me