Yet another wooden planemaking question.

[Kalimna]

Greetings all, and apologies for another attempt to turn the 'Hand Tools' forum into a 'Planemaking' forum!

Following a smoothing-type plane, I intend to make a set of round-bottomed planes of various radii. What I would like any advice on is what radius should I grind the iron to with respect to the plane bottom radius?
I will be following the HNT Gordon approach to bed angle of 60degrees.

Lets say, for instance, that the plane will have a bottom radius of 12", given that the plane iron will intersect this at 60 degrees, and that intersection will be more ellipsey in nature than circular, is it better to use a larger or shorter radius for the iron?
I am guessing that a partial ellipsoid arc would be the closest fit, but am unsure how to a) calculate this, and b)grind it....


Hopefully this will all make sense, thanks for any help!

Adam,

P.s As an addendum, where might I find a supplier of uk-based thick plane irons (6mm+) as any planes I make will most likely be without chipbreaker, again, like HNT Gordon.

 

[Paul Chapman]

Can't you just put the iron in the plane so that it's projecting from the sole, mark it with a felt-tip pen, then grind to the line :-k

Cheers :wink:

Paul

 

[Aled Dafis]

That's what I'd do, and I think that it's also the method used by David Charlseworth in one of his books????

As regards thick plane irons, give Philly a call, he's made a few custom irons for others on the forum. The other option would be to build a small forge like this one by no less than our very own Philly, and make your own irons.

http://www.philsville.co.uk/phillyforge.htm

Cheers

Aled

 

[woodbloke]

Can't you just put the iron in the plane so that it's projecting from the sole, mark it with a felt-tip pen, then grind to the line :-k

Cheers :wink:

Paul

This is how I've done it in the past, but you'll need to make a grinding jig (I made one for the Tormek) so that you can grind the blade to the appropriate radius - Rob

 

[Kalimna]

Good grief! Why didnt I think of that???? ***feels rather silly now***
Project the blade (or a piece of card as wide as the blade) and pencil in the curve.
It's easy enough to make a jig for the Tormek (well, it's a Jet I have, but same idea). Offcut of wood as wide as the iron, shape end to required blade profile, and use DS sticky tape to attach blade at required distance. Use wooden 'jig' as stop on Jet toolrest. Grind away till done.

Job's a goodun.

Cheers,
Adam

 

[jimi43]

Adam...you keep on posting these threads mate....I LOVE this stuff...

Now for my question...

Assuming I build the Phily Forge...what stock iron do I use and where do I get it from?

I am sponging info on the various types of iron used in um....irons...and the fascinating Japanese techniques....types of water....all that stuff but here, in the UK....if I wanted some stock steel....where would I get such an animal?

Cheers

Jim

 

[woodbloke]

It's easy enough to make a jig for the Tormek (well, it's a Jet I have, but same idea).
Adam

It's not actually...wait 'till you have a go :wink: If you have a short cutter as I did, it does present some difficulties...like holding the blade at the correct radius. It's doable, but needs thinking through :wink: - Rob

 

[Paul Chapman]

It's easy enough to make a jig for the Tormek

I've found that with the Tormek it's easy to grind an accurate radius freehand. Adjust the flat tool rest so that it's horizontal and grind the radius to the marked line. Then re-adjust the tool rest and grind the bevel.

Cheers :wink:

Paul

 

[Kalimna]

Rob - the method I (rather inelegantly) described is the method I used to re-sharpen a scrub plane blade. It seems to work easily enough for that, my only real concern is that getting a nice 'remove the hairs from your arm' razor edge might not be quite so easy freehand on stones after the initial radius has been ground. Perhaps I will just stick with the edge from the Jet and its' own stropping wheel.

Jim - thanks
I feel sortof like the irritating child at school who is forever asking questions. At some point I hope to give some of that time and knowledge back, but not quite there yet!
From what I can gather, any metal merchant should stock/be able to obtain tool steel in bar form.
And looking at the PhillyForge (tm), I might just have a go at that sometime. I like the idea of playing with different types of steel, but it seems that not all respond well to home-bodging attempts to temper and harden. Hence me asking about blade sellers....


Adam

 

[Aled Dafis]

Adam...you keep on posting these threads mate....I LOVE this stuff...

Now for my question...

Assuming I build the Phily Forge...what stock iron do I use and where do I get it from?

I am sponging info on the various types of iron used in um....irons...and the fascinating Japanese techniques....types of water....all that stuff but here, in the UK....if I wanted some stock steel....where would I get such an animal?

Cheers

Jim

Jim

What you're after is O1 tool steel, usually called Gauge Plate, or Ground Flat Stock. I get mine from MSC/J+L industrial.

http://www.mscjlindustrial.co.uk/CGI/INPDFF?PMCTLG=00&PMPAGE=1470&PMITEM=MGF-90110A

I've been meaning to do a little Youtube video of the heat treatment process, it's really quite straightforward.

Firstly heat the iron to "cherry red", this is a little innacurate really, so it's best to check with a magnet, the steel will not be attracted to a magnet when it has reached the hardening temp. Once the steel is hot enough, hold it at that temp for a time equalling an hour for every inch of thickness i.e. 6mm (1/4" ish) needs to be held at that temp for 15 mins.

In order to harden the iron, it needs to be quenched in oil, I use cooking oil, but any oil will do. Make sure that you have a largish quantity of oil as a 6mm plane iron dissipates a hell of a lot of heat when quenched - I know!! The hardening process will leave your tool incredibly hard (a file will just skate across the surface), but very brittle.

The final step of the heat treatment process is to temper the iron. Tempering is a process where the hardness of the iron is changed so that it is useful for the task intended of the tool, for plane irons, we're looking for a balance between durability and how keen an edge can be honed. For plane irons, we generally aim for a hardness of Rockwell C 60-62. This is achieved by simply heating the iron to 220 degrees C, this can be done by heating in a flame and watching the oxide colours turn to a light straw colour, but this is very hit and miss!! I use a slightly more scientific way to temper my irons, I bung them in the oven at 220Deg C for about 15mins. Simples!!

It's then just a case of grinding/honing the iron and making shavings. Go on, have a go, it really is that simple.

Cheers

Aled

 

[jimi43]

I will be checking back here often Adam...you keep on askin' them there questions!

Aled..once again mate...a mine of information!

I think I will have a go!

Seems like the ONLY woodworking job that is suitable for this week...the rest of the place is frozen out and I can keep me 'ands warm and roast some chestnuts at the same time!!!

I think I will give it a go!

Cheers guys!

Jimi

 

[Paul Chapman]

the method I (rather inelegantly) described is the method I used to re-sharpen a scrub plane blade. It seems to work easily enough for that, my only real concern is that getting a nice 'remove the hairs from your arm' razor edge might not be quite so easy freehand on stones after the initial radius has been ground. Perhaps I will just stick with the edge from the Jet and its' own stropping wheel.

Easy enough to hone a really sharp edge on a heavily cambered blade, either freehand or using a simple, Eclipse-type honing guide (or the Veritas honing guide with cambered roller). See the clip here by Deneb Pulchalski of Lie Nielsen http://www.youtube.com/user/LieNielsen# ... MHVt0NmZDk

Cheers :wink:

Paul

 

[Chris Knight]

Jimi,
At the risk of stating the blindingly obvious - do all your shaping before you harden the steel.. DAMHIKT.

 

[Philly]

Adam
Some good advice for you here. And the Phillyforge is the best tool to play with when it cold outside - keeps you toasty :lol:
If you need a blade making just send me a template and I can make it for you - drop me a PM if interested.
Cheers
Philly

 

[AndyT]

Just a thought for anyone wanting to make a plane but not wanting to do all the forging stuff first time round...

There are plenty of old blades around that can be had quite cheaply. Some options:

1 Old woodies on eBay can still be had for a few quid and will sometimes have a nice Sheffield tapered blade with some life in it, even if the body is knackered.

2 G&M Tools sort out a lot of blades and put them individually on eBay as 'The Plane Iron Shop' at 'buy it now' prices.

3 Bristol Design have a huge selection of new old stock blades and can supply pretty much any size and sort of blade. Easiest in person, but he does do mail order (not trading on-line though - phone instead - 0117 929 1740).
Street view image

 

[dannykaye]

I use a slightly more scientific way to temper my irons, I bung them in the oven at 220Deg C for about 15mins. Simples!!

Is 15 min enough for a big iron? I have seen 1-2 hours quoted on the porch...

 

[Aled Dafis]

When tempering in a "controlled environment" (your oven) there is no risk of overtempering so there's no harm in leaving the iron in for 1-2 hours, but I see no real need for it.

That's all that's required is that the iron is heated through it's entire thickness to 220 C, so I would have thought that 15 mins would be sufficient. Maybe for a large/thick iron you could leave it in a little longer to be on the safe side.

Cheers

Aled

 

[eoinsgaff]

I seem to remember Chris Schwartz explaining how he keeps his 'round sole' plane iron edged. Essentially he uses the plane to create a 'female' profile on an piece of wood which is then used to edge the blade with sand paper or honing compound or something.

It might be food for thought when making the plane.

I'm not clear on the details but I think it was an article of his and therefore should not be difficult to find. I think... :roll:

Eoin

 

[Kalimna]

What a fabulous amount of info this thread is generating

Thanks for the offer, Phil, and I may just take you up on that at some point, but probably not until later on in the year. I have a few cast steel blades to play around with first. And I always plan way too many projects for the amount of time I have to play

Using a plane to create a female form sounds familiar too - not sure where I read it tho. But another technique to place in the quiver of planemaking......

Adam

 

[Digit]

At one time Eion the use of a 'master' was the normal method of keeping the form on any plane with a profiled sole.
People often refer to Chippendale as a master craftsman etc, but in fact he wasn't, he was a business man who employed people on a piece rate basis, every time you stopped to sharpen a tool you were losing money!
The use of a 'master' meant that most people who made their own planes could have two or more of each, each producing exactly the same profile, sharpening could be done at leisure.

Roy.