(Yet another) MDF wardrobe

[colinb4987]

So I've just taken delivery of a shiny new set of tools, and have produced some designs in Sketchup for my new workbench, SCMS unit, and router table. The next project on the cards is a semi-built in wardrobe. I say semi-built in, as I will build it to fit a specific alcove, but it should still be removable (as we're in rented accommodation). I'm doing it on a bit of a budget, but SWMBO wants a nice finish, so after much reading around, what I was thinking was:
Plinth with adjustable feet to level the whole affair (18mm MRMDF?)
18mm walnut veneered (MR?)MDF construction for carcass joined by pocket holes
"shaker style" doors - 22mm walnut veneered MDF for stiles and rails, 9mm panel to be painted. All joined with loose tenons, hung on Blum-style hinges

Which leads me to more than a few questions:
1) Kickboard to cover the plinth - from veneered MDF, so just trim to size and wedge it under the carcass?
2) Edging carcass - iron-on veneer?
3) Pocket holes - I've seen reference to Steve Maskery's PH router jig, but can't seem to get any link to an actual picture of it, nor links to anywhere online that still has it. Is this still the go-to design for pocket holes? I'd rather not buy an additional jig if I don't have to
4) Construction - As per this post, PH in side edges and back edge of the top and bottom panels, plus sides of the back panels. Does anyone have a picture of this, or can point me in the direction of something that better explains it? It may simply be that I'm not fully understanding PH construction at the moment, so am struggling to visualise it
5) 18mm MDF for carcass? Or thicker? If it's veneered, is MRMDF even an option? Other alternative materials?
6) Stiles and Rail - possible (and sensible) to rout out the 9mm panel groove in veneered MDF?
7) "Loose Tenon" - I understand this to be a loose slab of material that creates the alignment in the joint, i.e. with mortises on both sides of the joint. Am I correct in assuming that glue would be the actual fixing used?
8) Shelves. I like the idea of the approach here and here, but again the image has gone walkabouts, so I'm struggling to see it. No idea what size I'm talking about so far though (overall alcove is 1200mm wide, 380mm deep but abuts a window so need to find the balance between light into the room, and functional hanging/stacking space)

Yes, this is probably more than one would advise a newbie to bite off initially, but it's also the reason for getting into this whole woodworking malarkey - so a few mistakes are expected and even accepted, but I'd rather minimise them by leaning on the advice on offer here first.

Once design/size finalised, I've another few projects to design - then one big batch of material will be ordered. Since I don't have a van available to transport between yard and home, nor do I fancy paying exorbitant delivery charges repeatedly to do this all piecemeal.

Thanks all for any advice!!

 

[mailee]

Not wanting to piddle on your bonfire Colin but if you are going to use veneered MDF for the door rails and stiles what would you do about the inside edges? once cut they will be showing the inner MDF! It is usual with this design to use solid wood for the rails and stiles with a veneered panel. Also if you are trying to build it to a budget Walnut is pretty expensive compared to most hard woods.
A seperate plinth is the way to go so it can be levelled first and as you have stated a piece of veneered mdf for the kickboard but held on with some Gripfill and not just wedged in. Iron on edging is fine for the carcass edges. Also 18mm panels are fine although will work out at 20mm with veneered ones. Can't help on the pocket holes i am afraid as I have never used them. HTH. :wink:

 

[DiscoStu]

I think you will need to think carefully about what edges will be exposed as just plain MDF.

I assume that using plain MDF and painting isn't an option?

 

[colinb4987]

Not wanting to piddle on your bonfire Colin but if you are going to use veneered MDF for the door rails and stiles what would you do about the inside edges? once cut they will be showing the inner MDF! It is usual with this design to use solid wood for the rails and stiles with a veneered panel. Also if you are trying to build it to a budget Walnut is pretty expensive compared to most hard woods.

Piddle away! Advice is what I asked for, all is welcome. Agreed, walnut is expensive. Sadly all the other furniture in the bedroom is walnut (genuine, solid walnut bought retail as finished pieces, so I know all about how much it costs!), which makes me loathe to just go painted. Plus I'm crap with paint and don't have a sprayer (nor the money to buy one).

So I was thinking I could actually make the cut side of the MDF the outside of the rails, and iron on veneer to that, the same way I would on the carcass. This assumes, however, that I can cut the groove in a veneered face without too much ripping or splintering of the veneer. If this isn't possible, then I guess the only way is to iron on a 6mm strip of veneer either side of the panel groove. And I don't think I'm up for the agony that will inevitably bring!

A seperate plinth is the way to go so it can be levelled first and as you have stated a piece of veneered mdf for the kickboard but held on with some Gripfill and not just wedged in. Iron on edging is fine for the carcass edges. Also 18mm panels are fine although will work out at 20mm with veneered ones. Can't help on the pocket holes i am afraid as I have never used them. HTH. :wink:

Thanks for pointing out the veneer thickness, I hadn't quite taken that into account!

 

[colinb4987]

I think you will need to think carefully about what edges will be exposed as just plain MDF.

I assume that using plain MDF and painting isn't an option?

Probably not, mainly as I'm crap at painting, and don't have a sprayer or funds to acquire one.

I'm in no way wed to the notion of MDF - but from what I understand it's the most pragmatic way to keep costs in check as far as possible. Any alternative suggestions warmly welcomed!

 

[Steve Maskery]

Perhaps this diagram will clarify the assembly:

As for the jigs, I don't have them any more. But I have found this photo. TBH, it's not a jig I remember, I remember two separate jigs, one for the pocket, one for the pilot hole. But then I'm getting old and decrepit. Anyway here it is:

It's no use asking me what the horizontal slots are for, I have no idea.

This method, routing a slot for the screw and a pilot hole for its path, is slower than using a Kreg, for example. But it does have one very important advantage over any Kreg or Kreg-clone. They all have the screw entering at an angle, so the carcase has to be clamped up VERY TIGHTLY before the screws are inserted. If it is not, then the two parts slip as the screw is tightened. This way, the direction of the force does not cause the panels to slip, so they stay flush.

HTH
Steve

 

[colinb4987]

Very helpful indeed Steve, thank you! To be honest, I'm considering just going with a Kreg mini jig for now, and using corner clamp blocks to keep the faces aligned.

I'm also abandoning the Shaker style doors as being too much hassle - plain veneered MDF with a handle routed out of one side and painted will work just fine. It'll be similar to these

, but a vertical handle.

With those revisions, and the input so far, the only open question I've now got is r.e. the shelves. I'll work out the design and thickness then come back to it!

Cheers folks

 

[Steve Maskery]

I would have one fixed shelf in every carcase. This adds a lot of rigidity It doesn't have to be exactly in the middle. If you want full length hanging for your long ball gowns, then a "shelf"just a few inches wide set at the rear inside will do the job very nicely. Again, use pocket screws in the unerside of it, where they are not seen.
S

 

[colinb4987]

If you want full length hanging for your long ball gowns

:shock: I wasn't aware my secret had become so publicly known!

Will bear the fixed shelf in mind when designing.

R.e. the plinth, I'm assuming a rectangle of 2x4 shimmed with wedges cut flush is pretty standard? Any need to fix it to the floor, or the wardrobe to it? Couldn't I use a slab of MDF with some levelling feet attached?

 

[Steve Maskery]

I make a frame where the members line up with the sides of the carcases, because all the weight is transferred down through the sides. Then that frame is levelled with, er, levellers. But you need to position them accurately as you need an access hole in the floor of each carcase so that you can adjust them. It does need to be adjustable because the slightest bit out of true will affect how well your doors close. DAMHIKT.

 

[colinb4987]

Ok, so a first bit of modelling complete, see below. As drawn, 18mm MDF with 2x0.5mm veneer for the carcass, 9mm veneered back, and 9mm veneered for the internal structure. Not shown are the pocket holes, which for the carcass would be as per Steve's drawing above.

The random piece across the middle of the upper half is the beginning of some thoughts about door construction. From L to R, we have space for ballgowns, 2x extendable rails for suits, then shelves for shirts, t-shirts and whatnot.

So, having sketched the box up so far, more questions come to mind:
1) 9mm MDF internally acceptable? It's currently drawn as veneered, but I might go to painted MRMDF to save costs and headaches. In fact, assume the latter...
2) How to join the internal vertical structures to the carcass in a nice but knock-downable way
3) How to join the shelves to the internal verticals in a nice but knock-downable way
4) Doors relative to alcove - currently as drawn the sides of the carcass come exactly to the front of the alcove. Should they protrude?
5) Size of doors - the internal structure means either two wide doors at 600mm each, or my preference of three doors - two even at 500mm each, and one at 200mm in the middle. I'd like to be able to open up just the suit side or just the shelved side of the wardrobe, hence the preference
6) Would a full-length mirror be practical on the middle door? What thickness of MDF would be needed to provide sufficient support (I've drawn 15mm)? Is gluing it on ok (silicone adhesive presumably?)? Would the edges need protecting (they would be ground already)
7) If no to (6), is there any reason I couldn't take an 18mm piece of veneered MDF and rout out a strip for the mirror, then glue it in place to protect the edges?

 

[colinb4987]

Ok, so I've further revised my plans - swapping the walnut veneer innards for 9mm MR-MDF, painted grey. Thinking I'll join the verticals to the carcass using screws through top and bottom pieces of the carcass - using Spax I think. Given they're being driven into end-grain 9mm, I guess the 3.5mm screws are the ones I need...

As for the shelves, pocket holes into the sides - but I'm not sure if 9mm MDF gives me sufficient depth to drll into. Anyone have any views? Or alternative fitting suggestions? I'd rather not drill through the carcass form the outside, since it's nicely veneered...

Still undecided on the mirror, too!

 

[Steve Maskery]

9mm is too thin to use PH joinery. I wouldn't go below 16mm Why do you want the insides so thin?
S

 

[colinb4987]

no particular reason, I assumed thinner boards=lower cost. Or is it marginal by this point?