X - Carve CNC

[HeliGav]

Any one used an x-carve or know of any alternatives in the UK its nearly birthday time and ive been a good boy lol

 

[Roughcut]

Peter Parfitt has some videos on YouTube:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hy-3k3o ... Q&index=11

 

[JR147]

Robosavvy are a UK distributor for X Carve (not that I was looking or anything...)

http://robosavvy.com/store/x-carve-basic-kit-plus.html

 

[acewoodturner]

Just had a look at their website, quite interesting. Just got myself a year 2002 Denford router. Had to get a laptop with an rs232 slot of a mate in order to get it running. Havent had a chance to play with it properly yet as Im a bit busy just now. The Denfords are fully upgradable and there is an active forum for them.

 

[custard]

This guy in the UK has some videos on the X Carve,

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCHNLNi ... ew7OskHdtw

Just about every small professional workshop I talk to mentions the X Carve. I wonder if this is the tipping point for CNC?

There's no doubt in my mind that CNC machines will become the routers or vacuum bags of the 21st Century, and it's just a question of which manufacturer first gets down to around £1000-£2000 with a large enough, decent quality machine. The way everyone's talking it could be the X-Carve.

 

[pcb1962]

Any one used an x-carve or know of any alternatives in the UK its nearly birthday time and ive been a good boy lol

Just about every woodworker on YouTube has been given an X-Carve recently, there are dozens of reviews.
Marius Hornberger's evaluation is one of the most frank and critical.
My impression from the videos is that with the supplied spindle motor it isn't up to much but may work a lot better with a palm router fitted.
Then it will become a question of whether the stepper motors and drive mechanism are man enough for the job.

 

[No skills]

From the looks of it the US maker crowd are upgrading with dewalts small router.

One of the little shopbots would do me 8)

 

[Sporky McGuffin]

Blimey - that's a lot less than my K2 cost second hand! It'd be interesting to see how rigid everything is.

 

[RobCee]

I have one of the precursor machines (ShapeOko2), before Inventables started selling their own version (the X-Carve).
Bought it in January 2014 and have given it some good use since then.

The basic problem with it is that 'out of the box' there are many things that are compromises, so if you want to get the best from it, you will have to upgrade them.

You can make it a lot better, but it will never be up to cutting ferrous metals.

So far, the list of things I have changed (which I can remember) is as follows:

• 
  X-axis widened, stiffened, and bolted together to minimise twist (a real problem initially)
  Built dust shoe and spindle mounts
  Modified mdf waste board with t-nuts
  Modified gantry mounting and custom spacers
  Replaced spindle with Chinese import
  Re-built dust shoe and spindle mounts
  Replaced waste board with Aluminium t-slot
  Added limit switches and filtering circuitry
  Upgraded Z-axis motor
  Upgraded Z-axis lead screw
  Added spindle control circuit
  Added frame stiffening members
  Raised machine on feet for leveling
  Made custom brackets and fitted drag chains
  Built custom enclosure for electronics
  Built a touch probe

The good thing is that you can do all this sort of thing over time. The basic machine allows you to get going easily and at a (fairly) sensible price point. There is little sense in spending £10k on a fancy machine and getting bored of it really fast, or breaking it because you don't understand what you are doing yet.

I really like mine, but it does have it's limitations. Would I buy an X-Carve? If I didn't have my machine, then I would. A lot of the initial problems I had have been addressed. From where I am now, I am considering building my own, larger machine so that I can incorporate my upgrades and design decisions into it.

I am more than happy to answer questions about these things if folks want to find out more.

So far, I have used it to machine the following materials:
MDF, Cork, Slate, Plywood, Oak, Mahogany, Acrylic, Perspex, Delrin, Engraving Laminate, Aluminium (up to 1/4" thick)

 

[custard]

So far, I have used it to machine the following materials:
MDF, Cork, Slate, Plywood, Oak, Mahogany, Acrylic, Perspex, Delrin, Engraving Laminate, Aluminium (up to 1/4" thick)

You just feel there's a real revolution about to happen in furniture design, where instead of being confined to metal OR wood OR fabric OR whatever, suddenly the designer's palette has every conceivable material laid out at once, all to be mixed up together just as you please. In addition the degree of texture and organic shaping that CNC enables at a realistic price is astonishing.

It's a tough call because I was trained in a rigorous Arts & Crafts furniture making tradition, but even if it means abandoning much of that hard won knowledge I don't feel I can let this revolution pass me by.

The question is at what point do you jump in? If I leave it too late then I'll be miles behind the learning curve, if I go too early then I'll waste a lot of money on quickly outdated kit with too small capacity. Many of my contemporaries are saying the X Carve is the one, and the moment is now.

I'm not entirely convinced, if I can wait another year or 18 months I feel sure something much better, with a significantly more substantial capacity, will suddenly pop up at the much the same price. Who knows?

 

[sploo]

You just feel there's a real revolution about to happen in furniture design, where instead of being confined to metal OR wood OR fabric OR whatever, suddenly the designer's palette has every conceivable material laid out at once, all to be mixed up together just as you please. In addition the degree of texture and organic shaping that CNC enables at a realistic price is astonishing.

It's a tough call because I was trained in a rigorous Arts & Crafts furniture making tradition, but even if it means abandoning much of that hard won knowledge I don't feel I can let this revolution pass me by.

The question is at what point do you jump in? If I leave it too late then I'll be miles behind the learning curve, if I go too early then I'll waste a lot of money on quickly outdated kit with too small capacity. Many of my contemporaries are saying the X Carve is the one, and the moment is now.

I'm not entirely convinced, if I can wait another year or 18 months I feel sure something much better, with a significantly more substantial capacity, will suddenly pop up at the much the same price. Who knows?

Totally depends on what you want it for. Most of the mid-size machines are probably too small for furniture work, and aren't really strong enough to do much aluminium (or any steel).

I know of a maker that uses one to carve out the bases for seats (they hand carve a prototype, then batch them on the CNC). The same guys make rippled MDF panels that they vacuum veneer (so you end up with a walnut cabinet that looks like the side is flowing fabric).

I've got a 39x25" machine made by K2. Sadly out of action due to a fault at the moment (and K2 have recently gone out of business ) but it was originally sold to the electric guitar making world. Mine was mostly used when I was building loudspeaker cabinets from MDF, and they're great for simple cut outs (with some rebates and pockets). They're also great for sign makers.

Any sort of 3D carving takes a much longer time - though it of course may be quicker than doing it by hand.

I've never used an x-carve, but from a brief look at the pictures I'd be wary of the rigidity of the 800x800mm unit. It doesn't look that strong for its size, and a 65mm Z axis may be limiting for some.

I'd love an 8x4' machine as the large size would give much greater versatility (and you'd spend more time cutting, less time loading and unloading the machine), but space and cost are prohibitive.

In short - these machines are very useful for the right jobs, but they're certainly not a panacea. In terms of learning curve - it's not too bad. There are cheap/free CAD programs and cheap CAM programs (e.g. I can recommend SheetCAM). There are good sign making and "take my picture and carve it" programs such as vCarve. MeshCAM will allow some degree of 3D work. You can of course spend $$$$ on top end software.

 

[Sporky McGuffin]

I've got a 39x25" machine made by K2. Sadly out of action due to a fault at the moment (and K2 have recently gone out of business ) but it was originally sold to the electric guitar making world.

Snap!

What's the problem? I rebuilt a fair bit of mine so might be able to help.

Software-wise I'm using Rhino3D and MADCam, then Mach3 for runtime control.

 

[sploo]

I've got a 39x25" machine made by K2. Sadly out of action due to a fault at the moment (and K2 have recently gone out of business ) but it was originally sold to the electric guitar making world.

Snap!

What's the problem? I rebuilt a fair bit of mine so might be able to help.

Software-wise I'm using Rhino3D and MADCam, then Mach3 for runtime control.

Thanks for the offer. It's the control box - the machine uses servos and the control box runs three Gecko G320 units. One axis has suddenly started tripping out with a few seconds of jogging it back and forth. It doesn't matter which machine axis is connected to it - that control box axis will always trip the whole box out.

I sent the G320 back to Gecko, who tested it and claimed it was OK. I've refitted it, but it still does the same. My next task will be to flip a pair of the Geckos around, to try to isolate if it's something else in the control box.

Rhino is out of my price range, but I also use Mach for control. I've not used MADCam though.

What are you using yours for?

 

[artie]

I built a small three axis machine about 5 years or so ago, with the intention that when I had it all figured out I would build a bigger one which would handle 8 by 4 sheets.

I finished the small one and had it working nice and just left it sitting there ever since. Could anyone give me an idea of what it would cost nowadays to build one which would handle 8 by four sheets and give 1 mm accuracy.

 

[custard]

Software-wise I'm using Rhino3D and MADCam, then Mach3 for runtime control.

There's no doubting your IT skills. Every time I see your flashing nose I think, "now there's a man at ease with cyber doings and all things interwebby".

 

[howser]

Hi, been a lurker here a while but never felt the need to post before now, but that looks shockingly poor value for money.

Please if you are thinking of getting into CNC even the cheap 3060 or 6090 kits from Ebay will wipe the floor with that thing

Looks like every possible corner has been cut other than the price

If you want a light production/hobby machine the likes of the Heiz High Z models would be the minimum spec and even those are a compromise.

The chinese machines are known for not having the best electronics but can be upgraded as you go and atleast they have propper rails bearings and spindles, certainly better value for money than this.

If you want to do engraving etc then i would recommend the T models as they have ballscrews which give the machine less backlash but even more importantly you will want more speed for engraving as an acme screw will limit you in this respect

You could look at:

prototools

I have no affiliation with them whatsoever, but you will atleast be able to see what entry level machines look like and even these mostly have unsupported round rail apart from the larger models and kress router.

However dont underestimate the kress as i still use one in production and as long as im not running for hours on end then its pretty good and relatively quiet upto about 14000 rpm, and this can be uprgaded later on if you wished to a watercooled chinese spindle for only a few hundred pounds.

 

[Steve Jones]

Build your own, I did

https://www.ukworkshop.co.uk/forums/topic90046.html

Steve

 

[sploo]

Build your own, I did

https://www.ukworkshop.co.uk/forums/topic90046.html

Steve

Not questioning for a second that your build is anything less than hugely impressive (it is hugely impressive) but I'm not sure it's a good solution for a professional shop - even a small one. The longevity and repeatable accuracy of a mostly MDF machine isn't going to match something made from aluminium or steel, plus there's a reason many commercial machines use sealed THK rails (dust).

Obviously, there's a huge difference in cost between that and what you've made, and as a home hobbyist I did consider building before I bought the K2. I still harbour ideas of building a fairly large lathe style machine, but lack of time and space keep defeating me. If I did, I would go for an aluminium extrusion design.

For a pro shop with a bit of time and welding skills, I'd be looking at making this http://www.mechmate.com/. I believe they started off life doing parts for Shopbot machines, and ended up being able to build an entire machine.

 

[Sporky McGuffin]

Thanks for the offer. It's the control box - the machine uses servos and the control box runs three Gecko G320 units. One axis has suddenly started tripping out with a few seconds of jogging it back and forth. It doesn't matter which machine axis is connected to it - that control box axis will always trip the whole box out.

I sent the G320 back to Gecko, who tested it and claimed it was OK. I've refitted it, but it still does the same. My next task will be to flip a pair of the Geckos around, to try to isolate if it's something else in the control box.

That's an odd one. I replaced all the G320s in mine with G320X when one blew and I rebuilt the whole thing, and there are tweaks to do to get them going. Have you run through the Gecko setup routine?

Rhino is out of my price range, but I also use Mach for control. I've not used MADCam though.

What are you using yours for?

I got Rhino at the educational price - I used to work one day a week at a University and had a staff ID card; I emailed McNeil and asked if that qualified me and they said it did. I originally got mine for guitar building, but I've also found it's really good for thicknessing timber with curly grain, using a big surfacing bit, and I've also used it for precisely cutting jig components and the like.

 

[sploo]

I'm feeling like we're hijacking the OP's thread :mrgreen:

That's an odd one. I replaced all the G320s in mine with G320X when one blew and I rebuilt the whole thing, and there are tweaks to do to get them going. Have you run through the Gecko setup routine?

I've read the manual, but it looks like it's not a 5 minute job - and it would require me to do quite a bit of rewiring/moving stuff around to do the testing.

I've flipped over two of the G320 units in the control box so I can test whether the same controller axis still fails (i.e. is it the G320, or something else). It's currently sitting on our dining table as I've not had time today to refit the box and test it though.

The G320 on the failing axis (Z) does have slightly different settings for the trim pots than X and Y, so it's possible that it's got a lower current limit (and that's causing it to trip out). But... it's always been like that, and the machine's been running for years. I always assumed they'd tuned it and found slightly different settings worked better for the vertical axis - though I believe all three servo motors are identical.

A refit with G320X units sounds interesting, and I'd certainly be interested in learning more about what you've done - though maybe we should take that to a different thread or private messages.

I got Rhino at the educational price - I used to work one day a week at a University and had a staff ID card; I emailed McNeil and asked if that qualified me and they said it did. I originally got mine for guitar building, but I've also found it's really good for thicknessing timber with curly grain, using a big surfacing bit, and I've also used it for precisely cutting jig components and the like.

Similar here - jigs, surfacing. Not done any guitar bodies though. Lots of loudspeakers that have played recordings of guitars :wink:

Good score with the educational pricing - great if you can get it.

I do think that the task of cutting accurate jigs is a good reason for a furniture maker to get a CNC machine. I have found that one-off items are often quicker to make by hand (once you factor in CAD/CAM/uploading/material clamping/checking you're not going to hit any fixtures/cutting/clean up), but if you produced multiple similar items on a regular basis then CNC makes a very strong case for itself.