Why do I keep doing this to myself....

[YorkshireMartin]

Oh guys and girls, I'm such a muppet.

These past few years, I've learned so much about fine furniture, wasted so much quality timber, ruined so many joints and yet here I am again, lamenting a failure in a simple task, which was entirely preventable.

I had to install some skirting in the hallway as we laid a tiled floor a few months ago. So what do I do, despite KNOWING it was a mistake. I go to B&Q, with 2 year old "helping". After 30 minutes of him playing with trim sections and not accomplishing anything mum turned up to help entertain him so I could pick timber. So, I spend over an hour going through the entire stack to find the least cupped/twisted/bowed sections of 15x94 (or so), I only needed 3 for the small hallway. I know it's B&Q timber but I can make it work, I thought.

I take them home and install them. I use adhesive (evostik grip) that had been stored in the shed for a few months, knowing in the back of mind it was a big risk, even commenting to the wife it was. I thought I'd save a fiver. I stuck them to the wall and nailed them on with the finish nailer.

Now, 6 hours after fitting it all, it's a disaster.

The adhesive, predictably, has completely failed and the timber is cupping so bad, that all the mitres have opened up top and bottom. They were barely acceptable to start with as every length was cupped, albeit mildly, but they would have sufficed with a bit of filer. Now, you could drive a micro machine through the top and bottom of the joints. That's with only 4 hours of central heating exposure.

I'm going to redo the entire job.

Folks, if your gut tells you something, follow it. I'm too embarassed to even post pictures.

 

[rafezetter]

Kudos for sharing that. I'd still take pictures in situ though because you might have some redress with B&Q - under the "fit for purpose" requirement - if it's that bad just 4 hours later I'd get in contact because the majority of average DIYer's isn't going to know about acclimitising wood or the effects of central heating on wood; and would do exactly as you have done, it's got to be worth at least an email right?

I've also made the mistake of using too old gun adhesive, and silicone come to think of it, thankfully in not quite such important ways. Nowadays I always check the manufactuered date and give it 18 months max.

 

[woodbrains]

Hello,

I've noticed a lot of blame being dealt towards the ' big shed' suppliers and it makes me wonder why. Why is B and Q the culprit here? Does the pine they use come from Mars? Does the timber from Travis Perkins, Jewsons, Huws Gray, Beers, et al, originate from virgin forests of old growth woodland somehow exclusive to them? Redwood, (Scots pine) if that is what you are using will all come from the same forests in Finland etc, dried in the same kilns ......I'm not sure what people expect of joinery grade PAR timber. I have put 7 inch and 9 inch skirting throughout my house from B and Q, still as flat as a fluke. If anything was going to cup it would be timber of that width. It was all stored in their 'outside' racks, too along with all the other joinery grade timber.

Let timber acclimatise to the environment it will live in. You can't buy wood one day and use it the next. No timber, from any source will do that.

Mike.

 

[YorkshireMartin]

Let timber acclimatise to the environment it will live in. You can't buy wood one day and use it the next. No timber, from any source will do that.

Indeed Mike. But we're talking about timber that is sold PAR and dimensioned to size for very specific applications around the home, being labelled as such.

I made a mistake here because I should know better, but put yourself in the shoes of a DIY type guy. If it's sold that way it shouldn't require any specific treatment at all and if it does, there should be something on the packaging to indicate that. The 15 or 18mm skirting they sell isn't sold as oversized ready for acclimatising and machining down,it's sold as ready to use. It should be ready to use and at an appropriate moisture level. I can't put a cupped 2.4m length through the planer to correct it if I need 15mm, when it's already 15mm. Besides that, it's ludicrous to assume a normal DIY'er would have access to such a machine.

That would be my complaint towards "sheds", if I wanted to make one. It wouldn't be on my behalf right now. I just mugged myself off by falling into their trap.

 

[YorkshireMartin]

Does the timber from Travis Perkins, Jewsons, Huws Gray, Beers, et al, originate from virgin forests of old growth woodland somehow exclusive to them?

This is an interesting question because I'd love to know what a finish carpenter would make of this timber. Keeping in mind I picked the absolute best from the entire stack, which was 30 odd deep of these planks. The cup in some was incredible. I can't see how you could ever make a good skirting installation from most of what I saw, let alone after what happened later.

 

[MrDavidRoberts]

Skirting from sheds is ALWAYS twisted/warped/bent in my experience, but where else you are going to get it if you don't have machines to make it yourself?
Its small/thin enough that you can bend it easily, enough of glue/nails will do the trick..

the sheds get the blame for their timber only because of their rip-off prices, in a good timberyard most probably you would still get the same timber but it would be considerably less and you would have less expecations from it based on that.

I still get B&Q 2x3 timber from time to time because it costs the same £300/m3 as it would cost in any other timber place and it's very close to me, the rest of their timber... I simply don't touch it because the prices are insane!

actually If I think about it, I use B&Poo only for their toilet when I'm nearby and to go inside to look at things. 90% of the times I go out of that shop empty-handed, the rest 10% is when I need to pickup basic things that aren't cheaper anywhere else ( 2x3 timber/ plaster/plasterboard/sand/cement.. and I think that's about it)

Hopefully when the homebase gets taken over by Bunnings the B&Poo goes bust.

 

[deema]

Well, unfortunately I don't think you have a claim. All skirting should be painted / sealed on all sides, and that includes the side and floor edge. At a minimum they should have been primed before installation. The cupping will be due to the exposed timber drying out whilst the other side against the wall dries slower. You would have the same problem with any stuff not sealed to some degree.

 

[RobinBHM]

Im sorry to hear your jobs gone belly up! Its so disheartening after spending hours trying to get it spot on.

If its a painted finish, I only offer customers mdf -dirt cheap from Howdens, ready primed and no movement issues.

Solid timber skirtings I find are best screwed and plugged.

 

[Mike Jordan]

It would help if you ensured that the skirting boards you buy are machined with the heart side on the outer face. They will always dry out somewhat after installation in a modern heated property, this will tend to make the curve slightly away from the heart side, think of it as the growth rings straightening a little. Used this way with decent fixings (plugs, screws & pellets) the top edge of the skirting will press itself back t the wall and the corner mitres will stay together. The same goes for floor boarding, the heart side should be on top so that the when the boards attempt to curl as they dry out the edges of the board are still touching the joists rather than rocking and creaking with the rounded part in the middle. The real answer to the problem is to leave the rubbish boards on the rack at the suppliers and buy only those machined correctly. Timber suppliers both in the trade and the DIY industry now seem to employ monkeys and teach them nothing.
As an experienced trade customer you soon learn that a stack of yellowed weathered looking boards have been turned over and rejected by others who know better than to buy material made by and sold by idiots.
Please don't take this as criticism of your efforts, it's a fact that suppliers won't supply good materials if we happily buy rubbish.
The very best boards for this type of job, and the most hard wearing if used as flooring, are quarter sawn boards where the growth rings are at right angles to the outer faces. You chances of finding any of this material is very slim today.

 

[MattRoberts]

I had a call from a friend asking if I could help cut his new countertop. He had curved kitchen cabinets, and needed the top cut to follow the curve.

I thought about how to do it, and settled on creating a template using mdf so I could get the shape spot on. I'd then cut with the jigsaw, and flush trim to the template. I knew that was the best way to go (short of him buying the expensive router jig specifically designed for it.

And then for some reason, I decided just to cut it with a circle cutting jig and spiral bit. I measured it several times, and it looked good. So I cut it. I took it really slow, and got a lovely crisp edge. When I'd finally cut through the full thickness, I saw that my measurements were way off, and the radius was completely off centre. It looked awful, and ruined a £175 countertop (which I paid for out off embarrassment!)

If I'd have followed my gut and made the simple mdf template, at worst I'd have wasted a scrap of mdf.

 

[woodbrains]

Hello,

OK, I take your point about the prices of these sheds being exorbitant. However, I can't agree that the quality of the timber they sell is somehow different to builders merchants and can be blamed for jobs going wrong. It is almost the universal excuse now, either advice from others not to buy the rubbish softwood from the sheds, or 'that job went t**ts up, it must have been the rubbish wood from B and poo'. I have bought PAR softwood from many sources for decades and I can say that the builders merchants store their timber no differently from the sheds. It is almost always in semi outdoor buildings, concrete block enclosures with roller shutters opened to the outside, etc. etc. Kiln dried timber stored that way should never be used immediately it is taken home. I don't know any source of PAR that is stored in centrally heated boutiques, with realative temperature and humidity to match the average DIYer's home. Even if that was the case, you would get a DIYer buying wood there and building a shed with it, and the opposite problem would ensue. We have to use some common sense.

I just took delivery of 50 m of 6 by 1 for school D and T Dept. from a builders merchants common in the North West and Wales. School winter heating has made it all cup like crazy! Luckiy, actually I foresaw it, I don't intent using any of it full width.

Mike.

 

[YorkshireMartin]

Whats the best way around the problem? Ignoring other issues such as bowing, everything on the rack was cupped, some sections far worse than others. Not sure if you'd be able to flatten it with plug and screw, certainly not into my walls, two of which in this case are just studs.

If I let it dry out as I would say, for stock I use for furniture, it would have cupped much further than it has now, to the point where I think it would be unusable.

If it's sold as a standard height and standard thickness for a skirting application, I dont see how you can get around it by buying sizes larger than you need. Obviously there must be a way otherwise, as you say, nobody would sell any. :?

Do professionals avoid buying pre-dimensioned boards entirely for this application, for example?

 

[NazNomad]

Even laminate need to sit for a couple of day in its designated room before laying. I hate to think how long real wood need to settle down before you use it?

 

[woodbrains]

Whats the best way around the problem? Ignoring other issues such as bowing, everything on the rack was cupped, some sections far worse than others. Not sure if you'd be able to flatten it with plug and screw, certainly not into my walls, two of which in this case are just studs.

If I let it dry out as I would say, for stock I use for furniture, it would have cupped much further than it has now, to the point where I think it would be unusable.

If it's sold as a standard height and standard thickness for a skirting application, I dont see how you can get around it by buying sizes larger than you need. Obviously there must be a way otherwise, as you say, nobody would sell any. :?

Do professionals avoid buying pre-dimensioned boards entirely for this application, for example?

Hello,

I think studs could be ideal. Find out where each stud crosses the boards, (use a spike of some sort to probe out each stud) mark the board in the appropriate places and screw into the studs, high and low on the board. If you put in all the screws to hold the board against the wall, then go back tightening each fully to pull the boards flat. You will get enough pressure on each screw to pull it flat, for sure, just do each screw gradually till they look right. You might cause the odd split, but generally it will be fine. The odd split can be filled with a polyester type filler and won't be a problem.

Good luck.

Mike.

 

[custard]

I believe shed timber genuinely is worse, but there's a rational explanation for that.

The sheds have more customer traffic; all those buyers pick through the racks, select the best and leave the rest. Over time the shed display gets silted up with rejected carp.

In trade wholesalers or timber yards much of the softwoods business is ordered for site delivery, or picked by the wholesaler staff rather than self selected, so the carp gets mixed up with the good stock and moves through.

There's a similar process in hardwood timber yards. Small independent furniture makers go down in person and skim off the very best. Volume customers phone in orders and get decent, consistent quality. But one way or another the sappy rejected carp with all the shakes and the impossible to joint up grain, that stuff ends up with those hobbyists who don't know any better,

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Scottish-Char ... Sw4DJYg7hi

Timber buying isn't like the weekly shop, it's not easy, convenient, and standardised. However, sourcing quality timber is absolutely critical, carp timber equals carp projects. To me that puts timber buying front and centre amongst woodworking challenges. But if you were to judge what's important by the column inches on this forum, you'd probably conclude the most important issue in woodworking is the merits of a number 5 plane versus a number 7, or is the Domino 700 better than the Domino 500. So kudos to Yorkshire Martin for addressing something that really matters!

I guess what I'm saying is that if you're serious about woodworking, but you don't have big buying clout, then you'll put far more time and effort into sourcing timber than into sourcing tools and equipment.

 

[Sgian Dubh]

I think what many people either don't know, or forget, is that the vast majority of joinery grade timber is dried to a target MC of 20%. Certainly this applies to all the common softwoods sold as rough sawn, PAR, PSE and CLS construction timbers, studding and various architectural mouldings such as floorboards, skirting, architrave, chair rail, etc. Furniture grade kilned wood (not air dried), for comparison, has a target of about 11% MC ±2% in Europe and 7% MC ±2% in North America.

The exception to this 20% MC target for joinery grade wood is large sections more commonly used in such things as heavy building construction such as barns, some conservatories, sheds, historical building restoration, and so on. By large section I mean 100 mm+ thick which are wet graded because of the cost and difficulties inherent in kilning to a target of 20% MC.

So, given this fact, and that most of this material is stored after drying in unheated and semi open sheds that will hold its MC at pretty close to 20%, (or shrink wrapped in plastic for retail sales in small bundles at places like B&Q, etc) it's expected that this wood subsequently used inside heated buildings will continue to lose moisture as it acclimatises to the ambient RH, and in losing moisture it's going to shrink more, with the inevitable likelihood of warp developing. As to the final MC in service, it depends where this wood is used: wood in roof spaces tends towards 17- 18% MC over time, that in stud walls might average out at about 15- 16% MC, and that stuff used as architrave, skirting, etc, might dry to somewhere near 10 -12% MC.

It can be a bit of a lottery when buying stuff like skirting and other mouldings. I think the answer is to buy the straightest you can find, buy perhaps 30- 50% more than you need, let it acclimatise in the end destination for as long as possible (ideally either stickered up or at least separated out to allow air to circulate) followed by selecting the best again, and fixing the stuff in place - discard the rest or use it for something else. Slainte.

 

[woodbrains]

I believe shed timber genuinely is worse, but there's a rational explanation for that.

The sheds have more customer traffic; all those buyers pick through the racks, select the best and leave the rest. Over time the shed display gets silted up with rejected carp.

In trade wholesalers or timber yards much of the softwoods business is ordered for site delivery, or picked by the wholesaler staff rather than self selected, so the carp gets mixed up with the good stock and moves through.

Hello,

This is logical, but I find in reality, the opposite is true. When I order from a timber yard, I cannot pick my stock, so a fair percentage I receive WILL be carp. Unless I over order, I will end up with stuff I can't use; not good for a DIYer. When I go to a shed, I can be a cherry picker and get only the stuff I like. If there is none left in the racks, I just try another shed.

The sheds also supply timber in polythene wraps and bound with straps. This may actually help keep the timber flat and somewhere near the MC it was when kilned.

TBH the quality of all joinery grade PAR softwood is low from whatever supplier these days. The speed which the trees grow and the relative immaturity of the trees when felled leads to a very poor product.

Mike.

 

[Terry - Somerset]

Why, even in a woodworking forum, are MDF profiles so reviled for basic applications like skirting - cheap, stable, easy to cut and fix.

I can understand if the desired finish is wood grain (eg oak) but if it is going to be painted and left in place for 20 years + (until next major refurbishment) real wood seem a sub optimal material

Terry

 

[HappyHacker]

I bought some regency skirting from a local timber/builder merchant. Having primed both sides the machining marks were obvious, spent a lot of time trying to sand to an acceptable finish. Primed again and painted both sides before fitting. After two years all cupped and required refitting, after planing the back to something like flat, . Wanted to do another small room so went to another timber merchant (who does their own moulding) for four lengths, went through all their regency moulding lengths and only found one which was approaching acceptable so did not buy any. Had to use the original supplier again with same problems of tooling marks (wavy finish on flat and mounding).

Now I have bought pre primed moisture resistant MDF skirting and it is wonderful by comparison.

 

[custard]

Very good point Terry.