Which Chisels? ...again

[TheTiddles]

ok everyone, this has been discussed quite a lot on other threads but I'd like to approach this slightly differently...

I want to buy some new chisels, I currently have a set of soft-touch Marples, two of each size, one rough and one good, they are ok but don't hold an edge too brilliantly and I want some with more flash factor.

So far I have narrowed it down to Lie-Nielsen, Blue Spruce or Ashley Iles, now the complicating factor...

I intend to get over the next few months a full set of bevel edge, butt and skew/dovetail chisels, mortice chisels are less likely as I use a hollow morticer and a router too good effect for these things. The chisels have to match, that's really important. So given this my musings are...

1) Lie-Nielsen - well there's no denying they are good, possibly the best, they don't make butt chisels and is it me or are they distinctly blade heavy? Last time I picked some up it seemed I had to keep my hands more on the steel than the handle, I'm not sure I like that, the mortice chisels seemed to have handles just to cushion the mallet, the blade was for holding, that's my opinion anyway. They come in 2nd for price and bling factor, to use the modern vernacular

2) Blue Spruce - not very common over here, really nice handles, the closest to what I currently have (I really like the slightly square handle transitioning to round on the Marples). Again they don't make butt chisels or mortice, but I could probably get them made as a custom, they are the most expensive and are staggeringly beautiful

3) Ashley Iles - British, which is good, I'm not member of the national front but I do try to do my bit. These seem to be pretty good by all reports, and those that found otherwise seemed to have the factory volunteering to sort them out for you, can't get better than that! They are also very affordable, do all the types I'm after (except mortice chisels). But the handles... they could get a PHD in dull. Now I could rehandle them in curly maple like the Blue Spruce, might need to get a few tools to turn them accurately and repeatabily, (probably Ashley Iles, self fulfilling prophecy?). Not sure how easy it is to do either.

So I open this to the floor, what would you guys with much more knowledge do? The expensive option (LN)? The really expensive option (BS)? The more affordable slightly DIY option (AI)? Have I missed another make or option?

Aidan

 

[bugbear]

The chisels have to match, that's really important.

Err. Why?

That's like wanting matching saucepans, but cast iron, enamelled cast iron, aluminium, non-stick and copper all have specific virtues, with none being unconditionally best.

Ditto chisels.

BugBear

 

[Anonymous]

So far I have narrowed it down to Lie-Nielsen, Blue Spruce or Ashley Iles, now the complicating factor...

Aidan

OK

An opinion from someone who knows about all of these chisels.

I have 18 LN chisels (9 bevel, 6 paring, 3 mortise - all purchased one per month), 6 Blue Spruce (4 DT, 2 skew) and 11 Ashley Iles bevel edged!


I have never noticed the LNs being blade heavy - you can change the handles with ease if it bothers you. The blue spruce are very, very, very special and the AIs are not competitors to either of the above in quality, design or manufacture - they cost a third of the price!!!!!!!!

I think the idea that they all should look to same is irrelevant.

My advice is LN bevel and Blues spruce DTs and skews. My blue spruce cost m around £3 less per chisel than then LNs.

Both LNs and Blue Spruce stay sharp for a very long time and I would say that the Blue spruce take a slightly sharper edge than the LNs and the quality of manufacture might even be slightly superior too. Having said that, the LNs are probably the best bevel edge out there.


On the AIs, I love them, the are great chisels, but they are not comparable to the LN or Blue spruce and are not manufactured for the same market - I bought 11 for a little over the price of 3 LNs. I now use mine for work where I need to abuse the chisel a little or if I work outside the workshop on a door frame etc.


Final word is that each time I reach for a chisel, 80 times of 100 it is one of the LNs, 15 it is the Blue spruce and .............

 

[jonbikebod]

A couple of points Aidan,
If you are underwhelmed with the Ashley Isles handles, ring them up and talk to them about it. They have quite a range for their carving tools and other ranges. I ask for the beech ‘carver handles as I find the burbinga standard handles enormous. I am sure they would also supply you with all the chisels without handles if you decided to make it a project or a commission for a friend with a lathe.
I too fancied a full set of butt chisels, back when Crown were the only ones available. I prepared them and made a nice box for them but 5 years on I have yet to use them in anger. They may come into their own for limited access but planning usually avoids this. The reason it length in a chisel is generally an advantage – it is much easier to see it is perpendicular to a surface and the longer it is, the better the chance of it staying that way when you hit it. Currently my most used chisels are the L-N with the long hornbeam handles, for this reason. It just so happens they are much better value at Axminster at the moment as well.
Hope this helps,
Jon.

 

[woodbloke]

I have a reasonable set of the LN chisels (six bevel edged and four mortice) and I think that they are the 'dogs whiskers' :roll: :wink: . I went to see Waka a couple of weeks ago mainly to have a look at his set of BS chisels and the BS paring chisels as well...fabulous is the only word to describe them. However would I use them as an everyday chisel in my 'shop...probably not, my own view is that the LN chisels are more robust and not so delicate, but Waka disagrees and uses his BS bevel edged chisels (not the parers) with a mallet, which I don't think I would do. That said, would I like a set of BS chisels on the 'Tool Wall'?....... :tongue9: :mrgreen: :tool: - Rob

 

[paulm]

I have a set of the LN beveledge chisels with lovely cocobolo handles, so lovely in fact that I made some spares from iroko so if I want to use a mallet with any degree of enthuisiasm I swap over to the spare handles and use the cocobolo mainly for hand paring.

Having said that I have used a mallet with moderation also without any ill effects so I don't think the cocobolo are that fragile in practice.

They are great chisels and the edges last very well indeed.

Having handled some Blue Spruce dovetail chisels as well these do feel a lot smaller, lighter and more manageable to me and perhaps therefore better if you envisage doing a lot of hand paring as they feel very balanced in the hand.

Nothing wrong with either make, they are both top notch, probably comes down to personal preference, size of hand, type of work etc, and if in doubt do what Tony has done and get both !!!

Like he says, the AI are fine and workmanlike but a different league quality wise, again depends what you want and your attitude to the tools at the end of the day..........

Cheers, Paul.

 

[TheTiddles]

Hey, I never said that all matching was a sensible requirement, just a requirement!

It's a me thing, see this bench hook and shooting board? Each one took quite a while to make, neither match my new bench so are likely to be relegated to secondary useage in place of some new ones, does it start to make sense now? Are you understanding what's going on here? That's right... I'm a looney!

Thanks for the info so far, keep it coming...

Aidan

 

[Anonymous]

It's a me thing, see this bench hook and shooting board? Each one took quite a while to make, neither match my new bench so are likely to be relegated to secondary useage in place of some new ones, does it start to make sense now? Are you understanding what's going on here?

I really have to say that this is strange :?

On the subject of the Blue Spruce, when i bought mine, i was able to specify the wood i wanted for the handles (I bought the DTs a coule of months before the skews, and all have the same wood for the handles)and if you really are that bothered about appearance, then this might be useful for you.


As I said, I own quite a few of all three makes that you mention (see GWW magazine, March 2008 for photos of most of them), and for high quality bench chisels LNs are the only real choice as BS don't make them.

You are welcome to visit the workshop and try all of them out

 

[cadders75]

I'm going to throw something in here and say why do you need to spend a fortune on chisels? i have a set of Bahco orange handle jobs with some older Sorbys and Marples, after flattening the backs they stand up to all sorts of use on hardwoods and softwoods, holding a good edge.

I've used someone else's LN's before and i cant see the appeal of spending a fortune on the worlds prettiest tools when a cheaper set made with good steel will do the job at a tenth of the price.

I'm open to education if there are good reasons ?

 

[Tony Zaffuto]

I'll toss in my reply for what it's worth. I like the AI butt chisels--handles fit my hands very nicely and the edges last respectfully for the US domestic hardwoods I work with. I also have the AI American pattern, and I find those handles a bit too large for my liking. I'll remedy that one of these days.

However the real reason for my liking of AI is the steel: it appears to be a high carbon, non-exotic type of steel, much like the Clifton blades I like. I keep a hard arkansas stone on the bench constantly and hone quite frequently. Both the AI and Clifton blades take an edge quickly and beautifully. Maybe I haven't given cryo'ed A2 a fair shake, but I don't feel I need it!

T.Z.

 

[Anonymous]

I'm going to throw something in here and say why do you need to spend a fortune on chisels? i have a set of Bahco orange handle jobs with some older Sorbys and Marples, after flattening the backs they stand up to all sorts of use on hardwoods and softwoods, holding a good edge.

I've used someone else's LN's before and i cant see the appeal of spending a fortune on the worlds prettiest tools when a cheaper set made with good steel will do the job at a tenth of the price.

I'm open to education if there are good reasons ?

No education. I used cheap chisels for years, I used Japanese chisels for years and they were better, came flat and held an edge much longer.

I had an operation to remove a cancer (scary time) and my wife bought me the AIs whilst I was recuperating and they are so much better than chappies and the Japaneses that I sold the Japanese ones.

I tried a friend's LN (Philly the tool collector :wink: :lol: ) whilst cutting DTs and found that my work was more precise as the edge is sharper and stays sharper longer, and the chisel geometry is far more precisely manufactured.

It comes down to preference and I guess money.

£35 per chisel when buying one a month was nothing to me - particularly as they are perfect when they arrive. No work on the backs etc. . I spend more than £35 per week just on petrol to get to work and back!!

I don't smoke and drink wine with a meal or at a friend's house rather than visiting pubs. My friends who smoke and visit the pub could buy a LN plane each month with the money they spend on drink and booze, never mind a chisel :roll:

I prefer to buy a good quality tool that is a joy to use and will last me a lifetime - whilst not slowly killing me!

If you're happy with your cheapies, then who am I to argue? I was happy with mine for years - though not as happy as I am with the ones I now own and use.

 

[wizer]

I really have to say that this is strange :?

I don't think that's strange. I'm like that in other areas of my life (kitchen knives for example). One day it will influence my woodworking too.

Having said that. I would buy a 1 or 2 from each range and have a play to see what YOU like. The ones you're not happy with will re-sell happily and then you can (obsessively) collect a full set. No one on here can tell you what you'll be happy with out of those three. It's up to you.

 

[Anonymous]

I really have to say that this is strange :?

I don't think that's strange. I'm like that in other areas of my life (kitchen knives for example). One day it will influence my woodworking too..

I meant the shooting board change to match the bench, not the chisels - having a set the same makes perfect sense to me

 

[wizer]

I guess, not completely odd tho.

Aidan, if you want a buyer for your old shooting board and hook... I'm a lazy woodworker

 

[jonbikebod]

I have a number of ‘English’ paring chisels. I don’t use them a lot. The older ones hold a good edge at low honing angles when used across the grain to clean the bottom of a housings, tenon cheeks etc. etc. As far as I am aware, these chisels were first developed by pattern makers who tend to work in softish woods like lime and jelutong. I would never dream of hitting these chisels with anything.
The Japanese make a wide variety of chisels for all sorts of uses and some with long handles became known in the west as ‘paring’ chisels as there length made them apparently similar to the western paring chisel. It is my contention that the Japanese version is in fact a distinctly different tool to the western version with a shorter stouter blade and much higher honing angles. This made them capable of paring end grain in hard woods, the longer handle giving a greater degree of control than that of a bench chisel.
Lie- Nielson then produced an updated version of the old Stanley 750 socketed, bevelled bench chisel; a chisel back in the western tradition.
David Charlesworth got his friend to make an alternative handle for the L-N socketed blade inspired by the Japanese long chisels. He showed the result to Tom L-N who decided to market them alongside his bench chisels. Very good they are to but I would be a bit reluctant to call them paring chisels. Paring after all can be done with any chisel including a slick.
The socketed blades are certainly strong enough to withstand blows as they are identical to the bench chisels (and the sockets identical to the mortise chisels). The hornbeam handles are equally able to withstand a pounding. Most importantly the primary bevels come ground at 30º so the cutting edge is also robust enough.
In short, I think David and Tom have developed a new kind of chisel altogether; the term ‘paring’ suggestive of a much more fragile tool than this actually is.
L-N themselves call this tool a long handled chisel and suggest paring only if you opt for the cocobolo handles.
My four pen’th worth anyway.
Jon.

 

[bobscarle]

I have no experience of either Lie-Nielsen or Blue Spruce, so I can really only comment on the Ashley Iles. I have two of their bevel edge chisels and have been very impressed. It is true that the handles could be a little more exciting and certainly the finishing does let them down, but the business end is very good. I am in the process of buying a set one-at-a-time.

Bob

 

[archiphile]

I think that if you are going to spend that kind of cash on chisels that you are splitting hairs on the quality. AIs are out of the BS and LN price point and I just could not justify spending that much on a set of chisels. I found my compromise in a set of Two Cherries. 1/8-1" in a nice box for 130 US and I am currently buying a set of Robert Sorby mortise chisels one at a time.

The T.C. set is the "special set" as in they were not polished at to a mirror finish. I liked that as I feel that the polish job round over all of the corners and throw more work in for the end user. I did have to hone all of my chisels before use but they are excellent in edge retention and ease of honing. Flattened the backs and bevels on my 800g and honed on the 1000 and 6000 water stones stropped and I have had them for about a month and have only had to re-hone once while I am working with some very old American White Oak. It really all comes down to personal pref and what you feel most comfortable with using. (as has already been stated)

 

[Benchwayze]

1) Lie-Nielsen - well there's no denying they are good, possibly the best, they don't make butt chisels and is it me or are they distinctly blade heavy? Last time I picked some up it seemed I had to keep my hands more on the steel than the handle, I'm not sure I like that, Aidan

A chisel needs a handle, of course:

But there are some operations where most of the force and guidance is applied via a 'blade-grip', with the handle merely cradled in the hand
The long bladed paring chisels being a good example.

Watch Frank Klaus using butt chisels for chopping dovetails, on YouTube. Also, I am sure you would like 'Hand Tools; their ways and Workings' by Aldren A Watson. There's an informative section on chisels in that book.

As for makes of chisel, the older Marples and Sorbys (circa 1950's) take a lot of beating. eBay is a good hunting ground.

Regards
John

 

[Benchwayze]

I'm going to throw something in here and say why do you need to spend a fortune on chisels? i have a set of Bahco orange handle jobs with some older Sorbys and Marples, after flattening the backs they stand up to all sorts of use on hardwoods and softwoods, holding a good edge.

I've used someone else's LN's before and i cant see the appeal of spending a fortune on the worlds prettiest tools when a cheaper set made with good steel will do the job at a tenth of the price.

I'm open to education if there are good reasons ?

Well cadders, you have a good point here. The finest chisel in the world won't be any use, if one leaves it in a rack, just to admire.

That said, I have a lot of chisels in my rack. Not because I squirrel them away, but because there is always a sharp one to hand whilst I work. I don't want to be stopping to sharpen so regularly. I can do that at the end of the day.

For the same reason it makes sense to have chisels with good quality steel, that won't dull so quickly. Marples had their slogan 'Good To The Last Inch'. So the less you needed to hone and/or grind them, the longer it was before that last inch arrived!

If your chisels are well balanced and holding an edge well, then you don't need to change. I might like some LN chisels, but I really need chisels I am not afraid of 'dinting', when I use them.

Regards.

John