What grade of oak do you use most?

[TradRob]

Hello everyone,

Long time reader, first time poster.

My extended family owns a small timber mill in eastern Croatia which produces some very find quality oak, ash and to a lesser extend walnut. The quality of the sawn oak is very high with the majority being in the 1a class.

For a while I have been thinking of importing some into the UK for sale but don't know too much about what quality people use the most. When I have made tables, beds etc I have used 1a class oak and only treated it with a light lacquer. I have been very happy with the look but some people have suggested that it looks a little too good and has a plastic look to it. Which I can understand.

So, my question is, what grade of oak do you think you use most and how much of this is based on price? I know grade 2/3 oak is a lot cheaper but I have a feeling that a lot of people in the UK quite like the look of knots etc. My thinking being that while I may be able to import the best european oak there may not be much of a market for it!

Sorry for the rambling question but I can think of no better place to ask!

 

[custard]

Interesting question.

Oak is just about the only hardwood in the UK that's graded, but what complicates matters is that some timber yards also have their own grading system, and there's also a French grading system that's often used for Oak sold in the UK!

Have a look here for more information,

http://www.englishwoodlandstimber.co.uk/grades/

I've linked to English Woodlands Timber as they often show photos on their web site of actual boards they have for sale, so you can match the quality you see in the photo to the grade of Oak that's given in the description for that particular board.

You also make an interesting point about knots, however it's not quite that simple. What sells well in the UK market isn't Oak with loads of big horrible knots, but "pippy Oak", pippy knots are those tiny knots that are sometimes called "cat's paws" as they usually come in small clusters that resemble a cat's paw print! I'll pay quite a bit more for pippy Oak, but I'd always want to inspect each board individually, as what I'm looking for is an even distribution of the pippy figure over the entire board, rather than all of it being in one place.

Final point, the other big feature with Oak is quarter sawing so show the medullary ray figure. Again, Oak is pretty much unique in that a particular cut is often separated out and sold individually (okay, I guess London Plane is also in that category with quarter sawn lace wood figure, but Oak's the big one).

Good luck!

 

[MikeG.]

.......What sells well in the UK market isn't Oak with loads of big horrible knots......

I back up everything else you've said, Custard. Spot on. But this statement has to be nuanced a bit, in that the most sort-after grade of oak for flooring is "character" or QB3 or whatever term your particular woodyard uses for it's 3rd category of seasoned boards. Oak flooring is in huge demand at the moment. I also seek it out for boarded doors. However, I wouldn't often use it for furniture (although you can find lots of very straight-grained and knot-free wood even in "character" or QB3 grades). The big knots are just not right for that.......but I also avoid prime/ QB1/ whatever your woodyard calls its highest grade seasoned boards, because it is possibly a bit dull, so I select through lots of QB2 boards. Luckily the suppliers I use will get a pack down and allow me to search through the entire thing, and I've been known to go through an entire pack of 40 or 50 boards to come up with just 1 or two I want.

 

[TradRob]

Very interesting input, thank you Mike and Custard.

I think the interesting outcome from speaking with my family is that in Croatia A1 is the oak everyone tries to have, but its cost can be prohibitive. What in the UK we might call rustic flooring in Croatia they would call 'Village Floor' as it's about as cheap as it gets. It's funny how two different cultures can look at wood so differently.

Custard, I've seen Pippy Oak but didn't know it had a specific name, I can see why people like it so much, it's beautiful.

Mike, you said that Rustic flooring is in high demand at the moment, is that for a particular reason? A friend of the family produces oak flooring in Croatia and most of the flooring is solid oak, from premium to rustic, but I would have no idea how to market the stuff if I were to import it. With oak boards at least I could see myself selling directly to carpenters and/or having a website.

At this point, I haven't decided what to import as I don't know what would sell, and what I could sell. What I can see however is that most timber merchants are placing a very significant mark-up on the cost of oak (3-5X the import cost is about right). My initial plan was to contact some carpenters and see if I could rent a storage unit and start my selling individually but again, I have no idea if this is wise.

I'm a physicist by training so this would be a total career change for me!

 

[MikeG.]

.........Mike, you said that Rustic flooring is in high demand at the moment, is that for a particular reason?

Wood flooring is currently fashionable. Most of the market is for laminate flooring/ engineered flooring, but lots of people with a bit more money and the right circumstances (it's awkward with concrete floors in existing houses, for example) go for solid wood. Lots of extensions are built with solid oak flooring.

A friend of the family produces oak flooring in Croatia and most of the flooring is solid oak, from premium to rustic, but I would have no idea how to market the stuff if I were to import it. With oak boards at least I could see myself selling directly to carpenters and/or having a website....

Premium oak isn't highly sought after for flooring. It's too uniform, as I said. As for how you'd sell it..........sorry, I've no idea. As an architect I get to specify what products are used, not where they are bought from. I only know what I know from a hobby woodworker's viewpoint, as gleaned from various timber merchants.

 

[deema]

If Im making doors or windows I always want UK grade 1 oak, which is in essence free from knotty and imperfections. It costs me c£70 +VAT / ft3.

 

[TradRob]

Thank you very much Mike, this is all very useful information for me! Am I right in thinking that your clients will choose the flooring they like themselves and will then let you know what they decided upon and you work around them?

Deema, mind expending on that a little? Is that English Oak? Planed or sawn? For window/door work I guess it's going to be painted so you are using prime more for the structural aspects than the aesthetic?
I guessing you are a carpenter? Mind telling me how much oak you think you might use in a normal week? The problem I have at the moment is that I know that what I have is a very good product, I just don't know how to make the most of it.

 

[MikeG.]

Thank you very much Mike, this is all very useful information for me! Am I right in thinking that your clients will choose the flooring they like themselves and will then let you know what they decided upon and you work around them?..........

Sort of, but clients need a lot of guidance. As I said, some have concrete floors and then want solid timber flooring.....I have to point out the issues and pitfalls. Some clients likewise want big ceramic floortiles on a wobbly timber suspended floor upstairs in their bathroom, or glazed quarry tiles on their "breathable" limecrete floor. It tends to be that I suggest a number of alternatives, and they pick their favourite from that.

 

[Yojevol]

My first big commission was a kitchen full of solid oak cabinets. Here is one corner:-

The oak (not the brown) timber was purchased from Clarks in Bristol. When I went to collect it, I remarked that the quality looked excellent. Yes, replied the salesman - we import it all from Croatia. That was a complete surprise to me.
If you are wanting to import to the UK it may be worth investing a bit of time in talking to Alec Golsworthy at TimberPride in Tetbury https://www.timberpride.co.uk/why-us/team/
Alec has been importing from France for the 18 years or so that I have known him, but he has been broadening his horizons in recent years. He may well be interested in what you have to sell.
Good Luck
Brian

 

[RobinBHM]

Hi Tradrob,

I use European oak, mostly for the manufacture of joinery.
Often we choose FAS grade or light character. Sometimes its sold as joinery grade.

In this country there are many period houses, barn conversions etc and some level of character is preferred. All sapwood has to be cut out.

Price wise square edge 65mm thick stock, FAS is about £1,700 / M3 Prime is about £2,300 / M3 all plus VAT.

https://www.iwood.co.uk/packs/32/oak-european/

The vast majority of makers in the UK want square edge material.

English joinery for windows and doors use mostly 80mm, 65mm, 52mm thick stock.

There is quite a demand for tongue and groove doors -made from 27mm boards usually about 200mm wide and 2.1m long.

27mm, 34mm is used a lot for furniture, skirtings etc.

Good luck with your venture.

 

[TradRob]

Hi Robin,

Very handy information, thank you very much (knowing what the words mean is half the battle I find!).

it's very good to have the price guide you have shown there too. I'm a little curious should you happen to know why there is quite such a price different between the iwood.co.uk prices and the prices you may find at a timber merchants? For example, a Bristol merchant is about £6k per cubic meter, but iwood.co.uk is well under half the price. Is the fact that you can see the product in the yard and reputation where the price difference comes from?

Regarding square edge, I did think most people would want square edge in standard sizes, I would just need to better understand how much it would cost to have it planed here or to maybe buy a planer myself and do it in the UK.

Also good to know the thicknesses you use, I think 80mm is not as easy to get given the drying time. I should add, all the oak I am talking about is air dried to about 10% moisture, but I guess it may need a top-up in a kiln at some point.

 

[TradRob]

If you are wanting to import to the UK it may be worth investing a bit of time in talking to Alec Golsworthy at TimberPride in Tetbury https://www.timberpride.co.uk/why-us/team/
Alec has been importing from France for the 18 years or so that I have known him, but he has been broadening his horizons in recent years. He may well be interested in what you have to sell.

Thank you very much for this. It's incredibly handy to have a contact who I may be able to approach in the UK. I imagine the quantities I can deal with are relatively low but you never know if TimberPride might be after some special timers that we have in Croatia. It's also good to know that my family and I are not the only ones that think that it's good stuff!

 

[Chip shop]

I've been known to go through an entire pack of 40 or 50 boards to come up with just 1 or two I want

Wow, I bet you're popular :lol:

Seriously though, I've just bought a pack of what was termed as super prime English oak, which incidentally is really good gear (although a bit case hardened in the kiln). It's about a cubic metre and I paid £50 a cubic foot for it. It was 30mm thick off the saw and about 125mm wide in lengths of 2.8m.

If I was buying the stuff off the shelf in the above dimensions (2.8 x 0.125 X 0.030) I'd expect to be paying £20 a board plus the dreaded VAT.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

Regarding square edge, I did think most people would want square edge in standard sizes, I would just need to better understand how much it would cost to have it planed here or to maybe buy a planer myself and do it in the UK.

Wouldn't it be cheaper to do it at source? Labour and workshop space are most likely cheaper there, and you wouldn't paying to transport waste.

 

[AJB Temple]

T0 give you and idea as a user: I am redeveloping my house and building 3 outbuildings (finished) so I have used a lot of green oak. Some has been bought from a very good UK timber mill, but most of it I have bought directly in France. For high grade UK green oak last year I was paying circa £24.50 pcf, significantly less for lofty loads bought in France, all milled to my required beam dimensioning list. All cladding of the outbuildings is in natural oak.

The entire upper floor of the main house I am laying with solid oak t&g at about 23mm thick finished. There is around 2000 sq feet of oak flooring. For this I do not want knot free premium quality as the look of the floor would be too uniform and dull, so I use a character board with knots, in four different widths, of which the largest width is 23cm. I would have liked wider boards but had difficulty sourcing them at a sensible price. This oak all came from Croatia, via my English timber merchant. I will post a pic of one room if I remember later.

I have made 15 ledged doors out of English oak that I felled myself some years ago. I bought another few in from a local craftsman. This is fairly characterful (a few knots and branch marks). I found that the price I could sell the seasoned English oak for made it a no brainer for me to sell most of it and buy my green oak from France.

All door linings, skirtings, architraves, etc were all milled to my spec from Croatian oak. Happy to quote the price by PM, but I very much doubt that there was anything like a 5x mark up. Obviously I am not buying bits and pieces.

Good luck with your venture.

 

[custard]

a bit case hardened in the kiln

Chip Shop raises an interesting point that's very relevant to current Oak quality in the UK.

For the past few years I've heard a growing chorus of complaints from UK furniture makers regarding the quality of their Oak. It seems that as price competition intensifies many people in the supply chain are starting to cut corners. To shave a penny or two from costs, Oak is being pushed through the drying process too fast, insufficient time left air drying after felling then too short a period in the kiln at too high temperatures.

End result is a high incidence of irritating quality faults like Oak yellow stain. You can see yellow stain at the very top edge of this Oak board, and looked at from a different angle you can see the checking that often accompanies it.

I'm now sourcing Oak exclusively from that 10 or 15% of timber yards that actually do their own kilning. I appreciate that as a furniture maker I'm probably a bit fussier than many users, but I mention it because as more and more users receive lower quality Oak it opens an opportunity for a supplier who charges a bit more but guarantees their kilning quality.

 

[Chris152]

End result is a high incidence of irritating quality faults like Oak yellow stain.

Do you get the same staining on sweet chestnut that's treated the same way? I often see yellow staining on chestnut but maybe it's something different?

 

[custard]

Same thing Chris, Sweet Chestnut and Oak are first cousins!

They're often planted together, processed together, and as they offer the user much of the same characteristics they're often sold together. In Arts & Crafts furniture it's traditional, if you're using Oak for a piece of furniture, to use Sweet Chestnut for the back and for the secondary timbers. They do look amazing together.

 

[RobinBHM]

Regarding square edge, I did think most people would want square edge in standard sizes, I would just need to better understand how much it would cost to have it planed here or to maybe buy a planer myself and do it in the UK

Hi Tradrob, Just to clarify, in the UK square edge (S/E), is used to describe boards that have 2 sawn, parallel edges. Hardwood timber can also be bought waney edged, where boards still gave the vark on 2 edges.

 

[TradRob]

If I was buying the stuff off the shelf in the above dimensions (2.8 x 0.125 X 0.030) I'd expect to be paying £20 a board plus the dreaded VAT.

Any idea why the price you are getting is so much less than what I seen from merchants in Bristol? Robins Timber for example has European Oak per cubic foot of around £170 (rough sawn). The price above per cubic foot is around £54. I know European and UK oak are going to be different, but I didn't expect such a difference.