what are CLIFTON doing.....

[bridger]

hard to not read that as they plan to cut costs a bit by reducing finishing on the rough castings, eh?

 

[bugbear]

hard to not read that as they plan to cut costs a bit by reducing finishing on the rough castings, eh?

If a paint give a good cosmetic finish on a non-working surface, and reduces cost, I say bring on the paint. That's no more than intelligent industrial design.

BugBear

 

[Phil Pascoe]

But they wouldn't sell as many to people who buy them to look at then would they? That would offset any gain made by reducing the price?

 

[Sheffield Tony]

I'm not sure why the pessimism about the change of ownership of Clifton. Flinn must be quite used to having to market their saws despite the abundance of cheap DIY grade saws. I know they have their more basic variants like the Lynx brand, but I don't think you can accuse them of going downmarket with the PAX range.

When I suggested that the green perhaps showed up the finish of the casting, rather than being lumpy paint, I didn't mean to suggest that the new colour might be to hide a rougher casting, but that it might make the existing one look better. I think it does.

 

[iNewbie]

Its not a glossy finish so you see less of what they deem as being fugly. Only its like taking Red out of a Ferrari, though...

 

[Noel]

Its not a glossy finish so you see less of what they deem as being fugly. Only its like taking Red out of a Ferrari, though...

Red has been in decreasing numbers for many years in Ferrari. White and yellow is becoming popular.

As for the planes, look great to me in the new colour but function, personally, is more more important than beauty.

Clicking on close-up it does seem a better finish too:

https://scontent-b-lhr.xx.fbcdn.net/hph ... 4086_o.jpg

 

[matthewwh]

Well said Tony,

It would be very easy for people without a British sense of sarcasm and 'taking the mickey' to read this and get completely the wrong end of the stick.

In the same way as painting a room in a paler colour makes it look more spacious, Katie has selected a colour that accentuates the refinement of the castings. Perhaps this is the first of many benefits we will see from having a lady on the management team?

Philip, Katie and Christian continue to have my full and unstinting support, on both saws and planes there are many reasons to consider their products among the finest commercially manufactured examples of their type in the world.

Many people are not aware that Clifton was built from what remained when Record moved production to the far east. In a similar way, Clico auger bits are made by the men and equipment from Ridgway.

Their first batch of castings were poured by the firm that used to cast for Record. Having been denuded of the massive contract for casting Record planes, the foundry was heading irreversibly towards administration. Clifton caught the tail of the whip and ended up with a batch of poor castings and lost all of their expensive casting patterns.

They started again with new patterns and another foundry and from batch 2 onwards have continually produced exceptionally accurate planes. We used to have a policy of inspecting every Clifton that we sold because there was so much muttering about them on the internet (originating from a review of a plane from the first batch and perpetuated by fans of competing products). After five years without seeing my feeler gauge pass under my straightedge, I came to the conclusion that I was wasting my time re-checking what Geoff and Neil had already checked repeatedly during production and again as they are individually hand assembled.

A Clifton plane is not a mass produced product, they are made with love and care in small batches. Yes, the stamp on the blade might not be millimetre perfect, hefting a 2 kilo forging, on the end of a stick, glowing red hot at 800 degrees C, into a press at chest height and getting it within quarter of an inch of a line you can't see is bloody good going.

If you want a handmade plane to look at and measure the perfection of with your micrometer - buy a Lie-Nielsen, if you want a handmade plane to use, with a forged iron and a slow ground fully annealed casting - buy a Clifton. If you don't want a handmade plane, buy a mass produced one.

 

[Newbie_Neil]

Hi Matthew,

I don't want to start a plane "war", but I'm interested in your comment.

If you want a handmade plane to look at and measure the perfection of with your micrometer - buy a Lie-Nielsen, if you want a handmade plane to use, with a forged iron and a slow ground fully annealed casting - buy a Clifton.

Am I correct in thinking that if you had a choice between USING an LN or a Clifton, that you would choose the Clifton?

Thanks,
Neil

 

[Fromey]

I own a LN low angle block plane and a no. 9 mitre plane. They are certainly not micrometer tolerance perfection. I've still had to re-flatten the backs of the blades and do a touch of filing for hand-catching casting lines.

 

[jimi43]

it would be very easy for people without a British sense of sarcasm and 'taking the mickey' to read this and get completely the wrong end of the stick.

It certainly would Matthew...and not only overseas it would seem.

You know me well Matthew...and my passion for all things British...especially old traditional ones.

I don't see anything wrong with Clifton planes as they stand if you want an ancient ( and may I say...American) design in a new plane...it's not for me.

If Flinn (with an F or an M :wink: ) improve the company to ensure its continued success then a huge thanks from me for sure.

BUT...don't you think we Brits care about whether they succeed or not. All of us? Sure we do..which is why we are contributing to this thread...in the open and with the honesty and humour for which Brits are renowned. It seems to me that the colonials amongst us are the biggest supporters too...which has generally been the case in my experience.

I wouldn't buy a Clifton plane although I have owned a few in the past and love them...and they make great currency...perhaps people trust the great "greenback!" :mrgreen: You certainly don't have a problem selling them so you can raise money to buy British infill planes that's for sure! :wink:

I maintain my view that accidentally or deliberately, the colour change has raised the brand awareness within the virtual world we now live...THE marketplace and that is either very lucky or very clever...I prefer to think that even tea drinkers have the smarts for it to be the latter! 8)

And if the traditionalists want the green then I suggest Katie et al keep BOTH colourways...a kind of "one lump or two" approach! :mrgreen:

Good luck Mr & Mrs Flinn (with an "i")....may you win this battle of the best!

Jimi

 

[Peter Sefton]

Hi Matthew,

I don't want to start a plane "war", but I'm interested in your comment.

If you want a handmade plane to look at and measure the perfection of with your micrometer - buy a Lie-Nielsen, if you want a handmade plane to use, with a forged iron and a slow ground fully annealed casting - buy a Clifton.

Am I correct in thinking that if you had a choice between USING an LN or a Clifton, that you would choose the Clifton?

Thanks,
Neil

I would choose a Clifton every time, the plane has soul and is hand crafted and finished. Any one who believes the hype that the other plane makers make perfect planes without any issues is living in the land of make believe (or a marketing man's ideal customer).
The fact that Thomas Flinn have taken over and are reinvesting in this great British product should be applauded. One early poor review came out years ago and people hang onto every word - the perpetuation of this is ridiculous. I believe the review may have been removed now or rewritten but I have not seen it.
The Smoothing plane review in Fine Woodworking May/June 2011 gives a much more balanced tool test of Smoothing planes with 14 planes tested in detail. The conclusion was the Clifton No 4 and the $50 more expensive Lie-Nielsen came out joint winners, with the Veritas and WoodRiver best value for money.
The comment passed on by the same author earlier in this thread about a Sheffield machine filed hand saw which cost £50 being rubbish, was he comparing it to a £200 Lie-Nielsen? If so what credibility can you give to such a comment - compare apples with apples!

 

[Newbie_Neil]

Hi Peter,

Hi Matthew, I don't want to start a plane "war", but I'm interested in your comment.

If you want a handmade plane to look at and measure the perfection of with your micrometer - buy a Lie-Nielsen, if you want a handmade plane to use, with a forged iron and a slow ground fully annealed casting - buy a Clifton.

Am I correct in thinking that if you had a choice between USING an LN or a Clifton, that you would choose the Clifton?

Thanks,
Neil

I would choose a Clifton every time, the plane has soul and is hand crafted and finished. Any one who believes the hype that the other plane makers make perfect planes without any issues is living in the land of make believe (or a marketing man's ideal customer).

Thank you for your comments.

Neil

 

[Andrea]

And what about un-lumpy lillac?

http://www.legnofilia.it/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=7904

Is it not a sufficiently British color?

 

[matthewwh]

Am I correct in thinking that if you had a choice between USING an LN or a Clifton, that you would choose the Clifton?

Thanks,
Neil

Absolutely, without a moments hesitation.

When honed at the same angle, hand forged carbon steel is only 6% less wear resistant than A2 but will take a sharper edge and therefore produce a smoother surface on the wood - one of the main aims of the exercise.

Carbon can also be differentially hardened, so the blade is self damping, air hardening steels can only be through hardened.

With Clifton's extra shaping on the castings, ring testing, careful annealing process and 20% machine feed rate, grey is capable of withstanding quite severe impacts, but unlike ductile it is also rigid - it can't bend - grey cast iron surface plates are manufactured in exactly the same way and for the same reasons.

Ductile was developed for underground pipes, preventing leaks with its ability to deform significantly without rupturing, but if it's bendy it can't also be rigid. Looking at the finish they achieve I doubt if LN run their machines at full chat, but they wouldn't alter the properties of the material if they did.

Clifton also incorporate the milled slot for the frog to ride in from the original bedrock design, so the azimuth of the frog face is always correct. LN mill the bed to full width and the frog just sits on top of it. Minor issue, but if the bloke making it takes his time getting it just right, it's one more thing you'll never need to think about.

The quality and accuracy of ground surfaces is the same, although Clifton don't make a marketing point of working to half the required tolerance, (they probably should).

There are a few points in the marketing literature that draw your attention away from these features, like the number of turns between forward and reverse on the blade advance. Clifton got theirs down to half a turn because enough people grumbled about it, but they could never work out why, if the underside of the lever cap is prepared properly and the thread is lubricated with pencil then the wheel should spin freely between one and the other with a flick of the finger.

The Americans do beautifully finished high precision castings like few others in the world (they even cast their car crankshafts rather than forging them) so as an objet d'art any LN looks absolutely stunning. The meticulous machining and hand craftsmanship that goes into making them is also of an exceptionally high standard and in the U.S. at least they represent extremely good value for money.

But yes, I'd still walk past one to get a Clifton.

 

[JohnPW]

Just from looking at photos, I think I prefer the grey version. That green looks a bit garish to me, whereas the grey looks more subtle, even refined, and more in keeping with old woodworking tools, which are mostly shades of brown (wood) and grey (metal).

Also the green one looks more glossy which will show up the (relatively) rough casting underneath the paint.

To say they are hand made or hand crafted is misuse of the term, IMO.

Re the blade stamp, why don't they stamp it after forging but before hardening and tempering? Or do they forge then quench straight away without letting it cooling down to room temperature?

 

[Andrea]

and the thread is lubricated with pencil

Do you see now that even the graphite begins to have his own logical explanation?

 

[Sheffield Tony]

That stamp is quite a heavy one. If you watch the How It's Made episode, you'll see the stamping spreads the top of the iron quite a lot, hence cutting to shape after stamping. I love the mix of technologies, that the iron is traditionally forged and stamped, then - I think - laser cut to shape.

 

[iNewbie]

Its not a glossy finish so you see less of what they deem as being fugly. Only its like taking Red out of a Ferrari, though...

Red has been in decreasing numbers for many years in Ferrari. White and yellow is becoming popular.

As for the planes, look great to me in the new colour but function, personally, is more more important than beauty.

Clicking on close-up it does seem a better finish too:

https://scontent-b-lhr.xx.fbcdn.net/hph ... 4086_o.jpg

But Noel, when the word Ferrari is mentioned the colour red comes to mind - think of the Tifosi.

BRG for Jaguar, Metallic Silver for Mercedes.

Flinn go for a no colour Pencil Lead finish. Its like Kelly Brook with no breasts. I'll go draw the curtains... :lol:

 

[Peter Sefton]

Its not a glossy finish so you see less of what they deem as being fugly. Only its like taking Red out of a Ferrari, though...

Red has been in decreasing numbers for many years in Ferrari. White and yellow is becoming popular.

As for the planes, look great to me in the new colour but function, personally, is more more important than beauty.

Clicking on close-up it does seem a better finish too:

https://scontent-b-lhr.xx.fbcdn.net/hph ... 4086_o.jpg

But Noel, when the word Ferrari is mentioned the colour red comes to mind - think of the Tifosi.

BRG for Jaguar, Metallic Silver for Mercedes.

Flinn go for a no colour Pencil Lead finish. Its like Kelly Brook with no breasts. I'll go draw the curtains... :lol:

You closing the curtains and thinking about a breast less Kelly Brook is to much information :!:

 

[Newbie_Neil]

Hi Matthew,

Am I correct in thinking that if you had a choice between USING an LN or a Clifton, that you would choose the Clifton?

Absolutely, without a moments hesitation.

Thank you for the excellent explanation.

Neil