tyzack tenon saw

[neilyweely]

Bedford Saw

Thanks for the work you did for me, the router bit etc.., I managed to take the surface out of a kitchen worktop and sink a slab of marble in to be used as a draining/chopping board. The bit cut as well as it did when i bought it, so you did a good job, thanks.

Although I don't know what you are doing reading these compliments when you've work to do!! :wink:

I am totally confident in your ability to sort the saw out, and look forward to seeing it!!
I was at a bumpkin fair the other day, with the largest collection of tool stalls I have ever seen; old, new, all sorts. And no-one knew where I could get that saw sharpened! They could sell me an old sharp one, but once it got blunt I was on my own (that sounds familiar!!!)

thanks again

Neil

 

[Harbo]

I have had another 2 goes at sharpening my old saw to cross cut without a great deal of success. I now have a saw that will cut in a fashion but with a very strange looking teeth arrangement!
The Beach jig did not work well on this saw and may be more suitable for the larger handsaws? In the end I followed the method in the Vintage Saws Primer.

It did however get me looking at other backsaws I have in my possession including my new Wenzloffs. None of them appear to be filled with any fleam ie they have been filed across at right angles - which is much easier to do. The saws I thought as crosscut have the correct 12 to 15 degree rake but zero fleam.
In fact the only saw I have with Fleam is a Sandvik hard point 5T handsaw which I thought was a Rip?? My 10T Disston D8 (Cross-cut I thought) is filed as a Rip.

I am now thinking that Fleam for a backsaw is unnecessary and perhaps should just concentrate on the Rake?

I am very confused.

Rod :?

 

[neilyweely]

Oh Harbo

I was all set up to have a crack at the old rip saw today, and thought I'd check the forum first. Then I read your post.

Think I'll make my daughter a rabbit hutch instead, sounds a lot easier!
I am beginning to think it a waste of money to buy old saws now, don't think I'll be buying anymore.

Which leaves me with a hole in my life that needs to be filled with something, maybe it's time to buy that new router table........
Thanks Harbo. You just cost me a fortune!!! :wink: :wink:

Cheers folks

Ps - Any good news from Bedford Saw welcome......

 

[Harbo]

Here's a piccy of it:

The saw was in a very bad condition - it belonged to my grandfather so I only wanted to renovate it for sentimental reasons. I have not tried to apply any set and really don't want to do any more on it as it is getting a bit narrow!

The Brent Beach jig is a bit unwieldy for saws of this size and one thing I noticed is that the slider notch has to be as close to the slider as possible as the file swings in an arc from this point . Also the rake has to be adjusted when set up on the saw with another small angle profile I made. Much easier to use a guide alignment jig out a small piece of wood.

I have not given up entirely with my other saws but will file to rip fleam only.

Rod

 

[JesseM]

I have not given up entirely with my other saws but will file to rip fleam only.
Rod

I don't know if this helps, but I've read that when shaping to not worry about the fleam angle and just concentrate on shaping the tooth, Then when sharpening apply the fleam appropriately.

 

[bugbear]

None of them appear to be filled with any fleam ie they have been filed across at right angles - which is much easier to do. The saws I thought as crosscut have the correct 12 to 15 degree rake but zero fleam.

Are you sure? You're saying all the teeth have tops which are lines, not points?

BugBear

 

[Harbo]

Bugbear - yes no points when looking down on them and also no differences in the two sides when looking at right angles to blade - i.e. should see fleam cut on far side.
The carcase saw cuts very well though.

Pity MikeW does not seem to be reading the forum these days - I know he is busy.

Rod

 

[Paul Chapman]

Hi Rod,

I don't know whether you read Konrad's blog, but Mike has just made two pairs of saws for Konrad and his son, Riley (they're real crackers - but then all Mike's saws are) http://www.sauerandsteiner.com/news/ If you read the comments, Mike talks a little about how he approached the sharpening. Might be of some help.

Cheers :wink:

Paul

 

[Harbo]

Hi Paul - thanks for the link - lovely saws (and planes)

I reread Mike's home page and it is I who has probably got it wrong as the Carcass saw does not say cross-cut - I just assumed it was?
I will have to check to see if the filing varies over the length?
It's only when you go to the Tenons that Mike offers a choice?

Rod

 

[Anonymous]

One tip about learning saw sharpening is that it is much easier to learn on a saw that is good shape to begin with. If the teeth are already shaped all you have to do is touch them up. This lets you get familiar with the filing angles and how things should look.

 

[bugbear]

One tip about learning saw sharpening is that it is much easier to learn on a saw that is good shape to begin with. If the teeth are already shaped all you have to do is touch them up. This lets you get familiar with the filing angles and how things should look.

Yeah - reshaping uneven, unequal teeth is hard.

http://www.geocities.com/plybench/saw_s ... ml#reshape

BugBear

 

[Harbo]

I emailed Mike Wenzloff about the filing on my saws and much to my pleasant surprise got an immediate answer (as I know he is very busy with moves and back orders):

The DT saw is a rip, about 8 degrees of rake and most likely a touch of fleam angle near the toe--and probably a little down its length, just less than at the toe. Reason is they are hand sharpened and it is near impossible to not introduce a little fleam angle.

The cross cut carcass would probably have been created with 15 or so degrees of rake and the same 15 degrees of fleam. However, when they get the final hand sharpening, both those angles would increase a little just due to the hand process. The fleam would have increased a bit more than rake. So I would guess the fleam on the carcass would have increased to about 20 degrees or a little less.

So I will have to look at them again more closely perhaps with my 10x eye glass?

Rod

 

[bugbear]

So I will have to look at them again more closely perhaps with my 10x eye glass?

Rod

If you're looking for fleam angle, you need to look in the bottom of the gullet; it's very hard to read slight fleam on the tooth.

Here's a 15 degree rake, 15 degree fleam, 10 TPI tenon saw, in a 0.035" saw plate

With apologies to anyone who's seen these photos before.

BugBear

 

[Harbo]

Here's a photo of the Wenzloff Carcass - sorry I cannot get any closer with the lenses I have:

It does not look like Xcut filing to me - still it seems to cut fine?

Rod - PS Excellent photos bugbear

 

[neilyweely]

erm, I feel totally out of my depth here now!

I am unsure I ever want to sharpen a saw myself, looking at the teeth on bugbears saw I don't think I am phsically capable of such fine (metal)work

I think I'll wait (and wait) and hope and pray for Bedford Saw to take sympathy on my poor misguided soul, and finish it for me.
I haven't heard from them in a while now, so am hoping all is well.

Does anyone know a place, maybe London area, that would do this saw for me. I don't mind admitting it, I am frit of messing it up!

Hope everyone is well.

neil

 

[jmk89]

Neil

Don't let these guys talking about fleam and stuff put you off.

Read some of the old books about sharpening, such as the collection at toolemera.com and set about it slowly and methodically, following the instructions. Since you will have the shape of the teeth nicely made for you by Bedford Saws, you just need to put a little 'cut' on the teeth and a little bit of set, and you will be able to start cutting wood.

The old booklets from Disston and Tyzack make it very clear - you don't need much set - just a little bit at the tip of the tooth. More important is that you put the same amount on all the teeth and on both sides. All you are trying to do is to prevent the blade sticking in the kerf. Start with less set and just at the tip and if it cuts straight and without binding, don't do anything more. If it binds, but cuts straight, add a touch more set. If it binds to one side or wanders to one side, check that the set is even on each side and even it up (I'm assuming the saw is straight - check that too).

The old saying about being able to take more off, but not being able to put stuff you've taken off back on is really true when it comes to sharpening saws. Take it slowly and carefully and it is quite easy to improve the saw over where it is now. If you don't make a complete pig's ear of it, you will be able to keep on improving things each time you sharpen (or joint, shape, sharpen and set, if you want to do the lot) your saw.

As the French say - "C'est en forgeant on devient forgeron". You can't learn how to sharpen saws without sharpening a few.

 

[bugbear]

Neil

Don't let these guys talking about fleam and stuff put you off.

Read some of the old books about sharpening, such as the collection at toolemera.com and set about it slowly and methodically, following the instructions. Since you will have the shape of the teeth nicely made for you by Bedford Saws, you just need to put a little 'cut' on the teeth and a little bit of set, and you will be able to start cutting wood.

Agreed. Go slow. Don't be bamboozled by all the discussion about which fleam, how much rake etc. These are secondary considerations.

What is needed is a row of sharp tooth tips, all at the same height, all at the same set.

Evenness of shape looks lovely, but is surprisingly unimportant.

I will repeat that a fine-ish X-cut is (IMHO) the hardest saw of all to do.

BugBear

 

[Peter Evans]

Bugbear is correct, a fine xcut is very difficult, especially with fading aged eyes (I need all sorts of visual aids to do a xcut these days). However any rip saw, even a fine dovetail is straightforward, and I have no trouble at all. With a dovetail saw you do not even need setting in my experience. Do not rub the filing burr off the saw - do a few warm-up cuts and the roughness is soon worn away. You get nice thin cuts, and a dovetail cut is rarely greater than 19mm, so saw binding is not an issue.

I have a large assortment of NOS saw files of most types and lengths, and if I can pick them up at fleas and on eBay from Australia, so can anyone in the northern hemisphere where most files were made.

 

[bugbear]

However any rip saw, even a fine dovetail is straightforward, and I have no trouble at all. With a dovetail saw you do not even need setting in my experience.

My only difficulty with fine toothed rip saw with very littl set (e.g. dovetail) is spotting which is the "away" and "from" tooth.

I eventually decided to use very moderate fleam, which make the distinction visually evident.

My present DT is 8 degree rake and fleam; the rake allows easier starting, which is helpful for a weekender like me.

BugBear

 

[neilyweely]

this is all good, but to tell you the truth I still haven't heard from Bedford Saw Co. If you are reading this please get in touch, would like to get a progress report!

Thanks all.

neil