The Pros and Cons of buying second hand

[Lonsdale73]

Yesterday, I headed out east to inspect an item I was considering buying and these are my observations on the experience.

Pros:

1. You get the chance to inspect the item and satisfy yourself that the photos really are a good representation of how it is now and not how it was when first unboxed some years ago.

2. You can see it in operation to know that it does still work as it should.

3. If you're lucky - as I was - the seller might give to a complete demonstration, covering how to set it up, adjust as necessary and how to use it properly. No matter how much you read up on the subject or watch youtube videos, there's no substitute for for a 'live' practical demonstration; was like being back in school and having Mr McGarry show us how best to avoid becoming Silver Nail Award winners!

4. Enthusiasm is infectious; listening to someone more experienced in a subject they still take a pride in is inspiring, motivates one to improve their own (limited) skills, which leads us nicely to the

Cons:

1. The realisation that no matter how much I've improved in these past two years, I am still nowhere near that good, that I really am and will only ever be an amateur wood worrier.

2. Leaving with a serious case of workshop envy, compounded by returning to base and trying to accommodate not one but two recent acquisitions into an already cramped single garage, wondering which item could be realistically relocated to the shed till such times as that lottery win comes along. Hence, my now empty offcuts box is balanced precariously on an oven waiting to be fitted while its former contents are clogging up the back of my car since it was the nearest available receptacle into which they could be emptied to make the move possible!

 

[Baldhead]

I understand your problems as I too have a single garage space to not only to work in but also store any timber I have.
To make good use of the space everything except my work bench and 1 work surface are on castors, I can move them around to 'create' the space I need, it's a pain but there's no other way round it.
When the weather is good I just move the cars forward and work on the driveway, this also means dust buildup is not a problem.

Stew

 

[Lonsdale73]

Yes, more castors being ordered! In the past few months I've discarded the 'heavy duty workbench' I bought when starting since it was good for little more than gathering dust (original top buckled under the weight of a few hand tools!). The much more robust (and wheeled ) version I built has also been moved out to the shed where it will be used as an assembly / finishing bench (maybe) and replaced by a mobile, folding MFT style work station. And another station to house the scroll saw that used to be kept under what is now the assembly bench. This takes up much less space, has the scroll saw permanently fixed in place at a workable (for me) height and houses a guillotine and track saw underneath. That finally gave me some space to actually work in. Then I had the whizzo idea of constructing an extension table for the mobile MFT cart thingy, impressing myself with how quickly that went from idea to actual product. At least until I tried to attach it and realised I hadn't enough room to manoeuvre it in! Ended up sliding the bolts into the t-track and then trying to singlehandedly position the drilled holes over bolts that were prone to move in the slightest breeze. But determination and persistence prevailed and I got there, eventually! Now I have to crawl under it regularly to get to things like the table saw, usually having to crawl straight back the other way to change dust extractor over, remembering not to lift my head to early and bash it off the table extension or my back on the table saw. I've seen some clever ideas for a revolving mitre saw stand so my own is currently under review - as is the possibilty of simply hanging it on what little wall space is left when not in use and securing it to the MFT as and when required. Wonder if there's a cheap TARDIS on ebay?

 

[No skills]

I feel your single garage pain.

Stand back from it all and look at the machines and work out what you can live without or change for smaller items.

Don't keep too much timber 'in stock'.

Keep tidying up.

All this from a man that can't even get in his garage atm

Oh and fit the oven...

 

[marcros]

I feel your single garage pain.

Stand back from it all and look at the machines and work out what you can live without or change for smaller items.

Don't keep too much timber 'in stock'.

Keep tidying up.

All this from a man that can't even get in his garage atm

Oh and fit the oven...

I keep thinking whether i can live without my table saw. An MFT type table, and track saw would do 99% of what i use the table saw for, and it would free up a lot of space. But I have refurbed the table saw, put a beismeier fence on it and it is a great bit of kit.

 

[Lonsdale73]

Even if I was to remove absolutely everything from my garage I still couldn't fit in the table saw I saw yesterday - it was a fiercesome looking beast!

 

[John15]

To make room in my small workshop I recently I asked myself what do I only seldom use and could do without. The answer was my tablesaw, so it's now in the garage waiting for me to find time to sell it and I have moved a second bench into its space - much better.

John

 

[Lonsdale73]

Oddly enough, the thing I use least - which is also the thing which takes up most space and was the very reason for setting up a workshop in the first place - is my router.

 

[lurker]

You keep a car in your garage?
How quaint!
:lol:

 

[Lonsdale73]

You keep a car in your garage?
How quaint!
:lol:

Who'd do a damn fool thing like that? What a waste

 

[bugbear]

You keep a car in your garage?
How quaint!
:lol:

It's agin' nature, I tell 'ee!

BugBear

 

[Steve Maskery]

Much as I love my TS, and I do use it, often, if I were starting from scratch today it would not be very high on my shopping list. A good tracksaw station, such as an MFT or a collection of setting jigs like mine would see to MDF and ply, and a good bandsaw, well set up with top quality blades, will sort out the ripping. Cross-cutting is best done with an SCMS anyway.

I'm not planning on removing my TS any time soon, as I say, I use it and it does a great job, but it is a luxury rather than a necessity.

 

[custard]

The realisation that no matter how much I've improved in these past two years, I am still nowhere near that good, that I really am and will only ever be an amateur wood worrier.

Let's say you can devote ten hours a week to woodworking, so after two years you've got a thousand hours of structured self teaching and practical experience under your belt. Then you should be able to tackle most basic, rectilinear pieces of solid wood furniture with a reasonable degree of confidence. For example you should be capable of making a side table with tapered legs and a dovetailed drawer, so something like this,

If that's where you are then well done! But if, after 1,000 hours, you can't make something like that, but you genuinely want to, then my guess is you've repeatedly fallen into some of the endless rabbet holes that fill the woodworking landscape. The sharpening rabbet hole, the finishing rabbit hole, the Japanese versus Western saws rabbit hole, the maybe I want to try turning/carving/gilding/pyrography rabbit hole.....or the how much mediocre quality machinery can I cram into a single garage rabbet hole.

Basic furniture making really isn't all that hard, and there's no reason why the average person can't attain some reasonable level of competence after a 1,000 hours of application. Of course, becoming a more serious furniture maker capable of making pretty much anything you can draw to a fully professional standard, well that takes 10,000 hours or more. But it's surprising how much good quality, attractive furniture is fully within the orbit of the 1,000 hour woodworker, provided they've managed to steer around all those rabbit holes.

Good luck!

 

[Benchwayze]

You keep a car in your garage?
How quaint!
:lol:

I couldn't even get a Mini in my garage, and still have room to open the door to get out. I used to drive in half way and then have to push the car fully in! As well as pulling it out to get in again! I soon got fed up with that malarkey, and disposed of plans to build a garden shop! (A Volvo doesn't need a garage anyhow!)

I should have built that shop mind, as the garage would have made a great kitchen-diner! We live and learn...

John

 

[Lonsdale73]

The realisation that no matter how much I've improved in these past two years, I am still nowhere near that good, that I really am and will only ever be an amateur wood worrier.

Let's say you can devote ten hours a week to woodworking, so after two years you've got a thousand hours of structured self teaching and practical experience under your belt. Then you should be able to tackle most basic, rectilinear pieces of solid wood furniture with a reasonable degree of confidence. For example you should be capable of making a side table with tapered legs and a dovetailed drawer, so something like this,



If that's where you are then well done! But if, after 1,000 hours, you can't make something like that, but you genuinely want to, then my guess is you've repeatedly fallen into some of the endless rabbet holes that fill the woodworking landscape. The sharpening rabbet hole, the finishing rabbit hole, the Japanese versus Western saws rabbit hole, the maybe I want to try turning/carving/gilding/pyrography rabbit hole.....or the how much mediocre quality machinery can I cram into a single garage rabbet hole.

Basic furniture making really isn't all that hard, and there's no reason why the average person can't attain some reasonable level of competence after a 1,000 hours of application. Of course, becoming a more serious furniture maker capable of making pretty much anything you can draw to a fully professional standard, well that takes 10,000 hours or more. But it's surprising how much good quality, attractive furniture is fully within the orbit of the 1,000 hour woodworker, provided they've managed to steer around all those rabbit holes.

Good luck!

Feeling like Alice in Bewildered Land with the amount of rabbit / rabbet holes I've fallen down!

 

[Benchwayze]

Lon,

If you haven't already done so, may I suggest looking on YouTube and visiting Paul Sellers's channel?
Top drawer advice.

Another excellent hand worker is Richard McGuire. (The English Woodworker) Go to his site and purchase his videos for download. Excellent. Step by step, and providing you take note, and are prepared to do some practice joints on scrap, you'll learn. Honest!

Best of luck
John

 

[custard]

Lon,

If you haven't already done so, may I suggest looking on YouTube and visiting Paul Sellers's channel?
Top drawer advice.

Another excellent hand worker is Richard McGuire. (The English Woodworker) Go to his site and purchase his videos for download. Excellent. Step by step, and providing you take note, and are prepared to do some practice joints on scrap, you'll learn. Honest!

Best of luck
John

That's pretty good advice.

The absolutely best way to learn furniture making is to enrol on a City & Guilds course at somewhere good like Rycotewood or Chichester. Or pay for a "long course" with someone well respected like Peter Sefton. The benefit of this approach is that they won't tolerate rabbit holes, they have a syllabus that gets you from A to B with no goofing off to agonise about irrelevant trivia.

But for most people that's simply impractical. In that case you need one internet based mentor who will take you step by step from absolute beginner through to a reasonable degree of competence. It must be just one single source, because mixing lessons from different people is a recipe for disaster when you're just setting out. There really aren't many places that fit that bill. I've dipped into the Paul Sellers site and from what I've seen he's your man. His designs are a bit dated, and he occasionally he gets a bit new age messiah, but none of that really matters because he'll show you a consistent and integrated method that actually works, and furthermore he does it in very clear detail and with a logical progression of set piece exercises.

The biggest problem is that it's then entirely down to you to supply the self discipline. There's no instructor at your elbow to keep you out of the rabbet holes.

You have to follow his instructions to the letter, you have to use the tools he recommends in exactly the way he shows, and you have to respect the sequence of projects. If you fail to do those things, or you keep darting back onto this forum and getting distracted with foolishness, then you're unlikely to make much progress. And after another two years you'll still have gaping holes in your knowledge that will prevent you from making much that's worthwhile.

Of course if someone's real objective isn't to learn furniture making, but actually to keep themselves amused and occupied with woody bits and bobs, then that's of course totally fine too. It's your time, it's your money, you do with them as you please. But if you genuinely want to learn to make furniture, then there really isn't any alternative to the plan I've outlined.

Good luck!

 

[John15]

+1 for Paul Sellers' online Masterclass tuition.

John