The price some people charge - a personal rant!

[bugbear]

Custard,

Sorry I think all you get for 99p is an email / phone call.

Here you are buying a quotation for custom made breadboard,

Yep - it's a non-free quote.

BugBear

 

[Glynne]

Dear Merlinfraser,

Sorry to disappoint but my real name is Glynne - if you don't like it you will have to blame my mother.
Not sure what yours is however?

Flat bits of wood - would they be the same bits of wood that I tend to buy?

unlike many boards on the market that are only air dried timber these are kiln dried for a few weeks.

You are in danger in starting another thread of air dried vs kiln dried - I have both but many professionals (Paul Sellers for one) tend to prefer air dried so there could be some disagreement to your views. What do I do with this hardwood (which is predominantly English oak, ash, chestnut, sycamore, elm etc.) - well it goes into my workshop where it gets sized, planed, thickness, finished etc. I tend to find that kiln dried is a lot easier to size etc. as even really well air dried can warp or twist, but I think air dried is more stable in the long run. How do I convert it? Well usually by machinery but I will occasionally use handtools.

Why are you surprised that a question you ask is vaguely parried away perhaps to protect a protected process.

I stand to be corrected here - there is obviously a secret process to making breadboards that I'm not party to, I just thought the salesman didn't know his product. Strange that Neil Farrer sort of endorsed this.

I think we've exhausted the supplier / non-supplier argument. Both have their valid points but, as been said many times, if you don't think the price is vfm then don't buy it - which I didn't.
In this huge exchange, I think reggie, rafezetter, iNewbie and a couple of others are on my wavelength but I can understand where the suppliers are coming from and this was a specific comment about a specific supplier rather than a dig at suppliers in general, although I accept some may have been thought it a little close to home and hence some of the comments.

However in all of the contrary views expressed and some very forcibly, everyone has managed to convey their feelings and thoughts without resorting to insults - until now!

So I'll take the opportunity, not to bad mouth you but sign off under my real name.

Regards,

Glynne

 

[nev]

100 replies in 5 days !! certainly got the conversation flowing there Glynne :mrgreen: =D>

 

[Jelly]

A nice touch, in my opinion, because it defines that all their timber comes from guaranteed sustainable sources...

Oh really now?... have you got evidence of the stands of new indigenous deciduous trees that are being planted to replace the old growth trees the timber is sourced from?

Or are you just bandying about the S-word with impunity just because they're definitely not using illegally imported logs from Sarawak*? Because it's not the same thing, not even a little bit. I note the lack of PEFC/FSC certification on their website/other information, so presumably they source their hardwoods opportunistically and can't guarantee that they're from "well managed forests" let alone sustainable ones.

*I'm not implying anyone else in the UK is (in fact I'd find it quite incredible), it's just that Sarawak is the epitome of a location infamous for non-sustainable timber extraction, so it really drives the point home.

 

[woodbrains]

Hello,

Actually, you are very unlikely to get timber with FSC or PFEC certification when you source grubbed out timber from privately owned farmland, park windfalls and stuff from people's gardens, etc. but it would be highly Eco friendly to use it and would be interesting to have provenance of such.

Mike.

 

[Jelly]

Hello,

Actually, you are very unlikely to get timber with FSC or PFEC certification when you source grubbed out timber from privately owned farmland, park windfalls and stuff from people's gardens, etc. but it would be highly Eco friendly to use it and would be interesting to have provenance of such.

Mike.

Note the emphasis:

Or are you just bandying about the S-word with impunity just because they're definitely not using illegally imported logs from Sarawak*? Because it's not the same thing, not even a little bit. I note the lack of PEFC/FSC certification on their website/other information, so presumably they source their hardwoods opportunistically and can't guarantee that they're from "well managed forests" let alone sustainable ones.

The word sustainable gets badly misused and it's important that people understand that for timber to be sustainable it needs to be coming from a source that will be replaced like for like, this simply doesn't happen currently with old-growth hardwoods, though I very much hope it starts to...
The opportunistic sourcing of hardwoods is not intrinsically bad for the environment, nor do I mean to say it is... But it's not sustainable, simply putting to good use a natural resource that might otherwise be lost for non-forestry related reasons.

I'm well aware that the PEFC/FSC schemes are unlikely to cover the sources of these timbers, or indeed such a small manufacturer... But they're about as close as you'll get to a "guarantee" of good forestry practice (as touted by merlin) and even then it's not nearly as certain as they'd have you believe.

 

[woodbrains]

Hello,

Perhaps I should have added, that not everything made from FSC timber is necessarily ecologically sound, and things not made from FSC timber is not necessarily un-ecological. We should not judge until there is some hard evidence to judge from.

No doubt these chopping boards are made from commercially unviable stock, which may well have been burned or turned into chipboard, which IMO is a better use for it and ecological. Sustainability is not the only aspect of ecological propriety.

Mike.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

A nice touch, in my opinion, because it defines that all their timber comes from guaranteed sustainable sources...

Oh really now?... have you got evidence of the stands of new indigenous deciduous trees that are being planted to replace the old growth trees the timber is sourced from?

Or are you just bandying about the S-word with impunity just because they're definitely not using illegally imported logs from Sarawak*? Because it's not the same thing, not even a little bit. I note the lack of PEFC/FSC certification on their website/other information, so presumably they source their hardwoods opportunistically and can't guarantee that they're from "well managed forests" let alone sustainable ones.

*I'm not implying anyone else in the UK is (in fact I'd find it quite incredible), it's just that Sarawak is the epitome of a location infamous for non-sustainable timber extraction, so it really drives the point home.

Sarawak? A friend told me he had just read a book by two Spanish journalists about Chinese plans for world domination that said Mozambique would be TOTALLY DEFORESTED in eight years time at current rates.

 

[Jelly]

Hello,

Perhaps I should have added, that not everything made from FSC timber is necessarily ecologically sound, and things not made from FSC timber is not necessarily un-ecological. We should not judge until there is some hard evidence to judge from.

No doubt these chopping boards are made from commercially unviable stock, which may well have been burned or turned into chipboard, which IMO is a better use for it and ecological. Sustainability is not the only aspect of ecological propriety.

Mike.

Getting away from certification bodies (all of which are a little flawed), it's important that people don't use sustainable willy-nilly, if something is environmentally sound in that it's reclaimed from non-commercial felling, explain how... Don't just subject the S-Word to further denigration, there will never be any impetus for a push towards truly sustainable forestry at all if people wrongly believe that it's already widespread.

The Scandinavians and the Russians are on the right lines, but even there the pressures of commercial silviculture can act to force out commercially unimportant species from whole forests, one stand at a time, reducing forest bio-diversity.

 

[Reggie]

whilst the certification systems might be flawed (I have no idea, haven't looked at them) if this company doesn't use stuff that can be verified then using the word sustainable is not really provable I suspect? I'm not calling them liars, just that if they can't back up their claim, it leaves them open to questioning like this.

Given the cost of the boards though, the one thing that niggles me is the fact that the guy didn't want to put himself out to earn the money for the product. For me that would've been an opportunity to spout something about the product so that everyone around could hear, whether you buy it or not, I've been helpful and hopefully dispelled any doubts that others may have. Repeat after me, Courtesy costs .... 75 quid a board!!

 

[merlinfraser]

Jelly Quote

"Or are you just bandying about the S-word with impunity just because they're definitely not using illegally imported logs from Sarawak*? Because it's not the same thing, not even a little bit. I note the lack of PEFC/FSC certification on their website/other information, so presumably they source their hardwoods opportunistically and can't guarantee that they're from "well managed forests" let alone sustainable ones."

Yes Really, Really...looking at their labels, it tells you where the original timber for the boards came from, mainly forests under the control of the Forestry Commission, some from private Estates, even Westonbirt Arboretum.... wouldn't have thought you could get more guaranteed sustainable sources than that .

 

[david123]

Just picked up this post (been away) Perhaps it is time to step back and reflect..

Don't Take Anything Personally. Nothing others do is because of you. What others say and do is a projection of their own reality, their own dream. When you are immune to the opinions and actions of others, you won't be the victim of needless suffering.
Miguel Angel Ruiz

 

[Bluekingfisher]

Aww, c'mon now, don't be too hard on Merlin, he was only jumping on the bandwagon with the rest of them Incidentlly they have become conspicious by their abscence since their views have been challenged.....interesting??

David

 

[merlinfraser]

Bless you Glynne what a joy you must be around, before I disappear let me ask a serious question.
When you went onto this exhibitor's stand were you really a serious potential customer or just out for a bit of fun and looking to wind this guy up and got angry when he didn't play along ?

You see while I bow to your supposed superior knowledge about wood craftsmanship I'm not sure you know a lot about NEC shows, Five 10 hour days attracting thousands of visitors a day. These will cover a wide spectrum of people from the simple curious to the out and out time wasters. With experience most stall holders and their staff quickly get a feel for those passing by and I suspect this guy may be a lot smarter than you give him credit for. After all by your own admission you say your own wife had to frog march you away, sounds like the desperate act of an embarrassed woman who has seen your performance before.

My guess is you were spotted and rightly or wrongly identified as a potential time waster rather than as a potential buyer and you took the hump !

 

[Kalimna]

Just out of interest, surely knowing where the tree came from/grew doesnt make it sustainable. Nice to know. But sustainable means that you can 'sustain' something (in this context the timber), and unless there is clear evidence of replanting then it isnt sustainable. Might be eco-friendly I suppose, but not sustainable.

Cheers,
Adam

 

[marcros]

Aww, c'mon now, don't be too hard on Merlin, he was only jumping on the bandwagon with the rest of them Incidentlly they have become conspicious by their abscence since their views have been challenged.....interesting??

David

if I am one "conspicuous by my absence", I am still here. I stand by my views but really have nothing more to add. No point in rewording my same opinion, and i respect that others may disagree. It isn't a competition, where at the end everybody has to agree on the unified opinion of the forum.

As for posts like you have made in this thread, it seems that you enjoy stirring up the dung. Like the other post where you made some ridiculous comment, and then have no shame in provoking people to point out just how foolish it sounded.

At the end of the day, it is a chopping board. If you dont value an (any) item at what is being charged for it, dont buy it. Everybody has different priorities, interests, tastes and budgets.

 

[Bluekingfisher]

Aww, c'mon now, don't be too hard on Merlin, he was only jumping on the bandwagon with the rest of them Incidentlly they have become conspicious by their abscence since their views have been challenged.....interesting??

David

if I am one "conspicuous by my absence", I am still here. I stand by my views but really have nothing more to add. No point in rewording my same opinion, and i respect that others may disagree. It isn't a competition, where at the end everybody has to agree on the unified opinion of the forum.

As for posts like you have made in this thread, it seems that you enjoy stirring up the dung. Like the other post where you made some ridiculous comment, and then have no shame in provoking people to point out just how foolish it sounded.


At the end of the day, it is a chopping board. If you dont value an (any) item at what is being charged for it, dont buy it. Everybody has different priorities, interests, tastes and budgets.

Asd you rightly state we all have differnt views and are entitled to express them. I think we are agreed on that point?? However unlike some, i do not make direct defamatory or profane remarks, I would like to think I am above that.

As far as "Stiring the dung" goes, if you can't see the irony then more fool you.


David

 

[RogerBoyle]

Aww, c'mon now, don't be too hard on Merlin, he was only jumping on the bandwagon with the rest of them Incidentlly they have become conspicious by their abscence since their views have been challenged.....interesting??

David

Not interesting at all TBH as I'm quite sure others will tell you :roll:
As I have obviously hurt your feelings and upset you I thought about ignoring you as life is to short to play silly games with people other than my family.

Instead I will simply say I'm still here as well and like the other poster I standby my earlier posts and as yet I fail to see any challenge to my posts other than thinly veiled attempts by you to illicit some kind of response

Now just to put your mind at rest rather than spoil a thread that several people are enjoying I will refrain from posting so please do not take this as a sign that my views have changed , They haven't
Enough said

 

[Glynne]

Sorry - I missed merlinfraser's question in all of the exchanges.

I will reply to this as having been asked a direct question but like a lot of others, I think all of the arguments have been exhausted and there is a degree of niggle creeping in so this is probably my last post as well (making 3 in total).

When you went onto this exhibitor's stand were you really a serious potential customer or just out for a bit of fun and looking to wind this guy up...?

Neither - I saw wooden products in which I'm always interested and went over to find out more about them, how they are made, what woods etc. I may have an unusual sense of humour but it doesn't extend to approaching total strangers with a view to winding them up.

No, I haven't been a stall holder at any NEC shows but living just over 10 miles away, I have been to a large number of shows - there even used to be a woodworking one many years ago for those with long memories. Always had a good time and met loads of helpful people ready to share their knowledge.

With experience most stall holders and their staff quickly get a feel for those passing by and I suspect this guy may be a lot smarter than you give him credit for.

Quite possibly but let me also comment about some other stall holders.

A Welsh company making dovecotes (I haven't quoted the site as some people don't agree with this but it should be easily found).
Things made out of wood, so I went a had a word. Charming knowledgeable guy. Immediately asked me if I was interested in buying or simply in the products and how they were made. When I explained that my garden wasn't big enough and that I had given away some inherited dovecote plans (to someone on the forum), he was still happy to explain about his products even to the point of looking up the shade of paint used! Were they cheap no, but I understood why not. Would I suggest anyone wanting a dovecote to check him out, absolutely.

Both companies selling japanese knives (there was a bit of this thread relating to japanese knives) - absolutely brilliant. Didn't even ask if people were interested in buying, they simply took delight in explaining what their products were, how to use them and encouraged people to have a play. Even when one was asked why they were so expensive, they explained the knife making process, folding steel etc. and how this led to the cost. I had a good conversation about the use of water stones with one company and both simply thanked me for my interest and gave me a business card. Will I buy a japanese knife, I don't know - but I'm more likely to now than I was before.

After all by your own admission you say your own wife had to frog march you away, sounds like the desperate act of an embarrassed woman who has seen your performance before.

OK humour doesn't always translate when written (so my fault), but no I wasn't actually in an arm lock (surprise, surprise) and in fact I think she had long disappeared to look at more interesting things than breadboards way before he got up my nose. If I took the hump, it was probably all of the way to the next helpful stand, which was almost certainly the next one I visited.

Questions answered honestly and that's me out of this thread.

Glynne

 

[iNewbie]

Bless you Glynne what a joy you must be around, before I disappear let me ask a serious question.
When you went onto this exhibitor's stand were you really a serious potential customer or just out for a bit of fun and looking to wind this guy up and got angry when he didn't play along ?

You see while I bow to your supposed superior knowledge about wood craftsmanship I'm not sure you know a lot about NEC shows, Five 10 hour days attracting thousands of visitors a day. These will cover a wide spectrum of people from the simple curious to the out and out time wasters. With experience most stall holders and their staff quickly get a feel for those passing by and I suspect this guy may be a lot smarter than you give him credit for. After all by your own admission you say your own wife had to frog march you away, sounds like the desperate act of an embarrassed woman who has seen your performance before.

My guess is you were spotted and rightly or wrongly identified as a potential time waster rather than as a potential buyer and you took the hump !

Yet, here you are -even joining a forum to do it!, riding Glynne - oh the irony! :mrgreen: