The language is mutating (and always has done)

[Terry - Somerset]

I had the pleasure of a very contemporary education. A technical school (for bright kids with practical tendencies) closely associated (same site) with the local polytechnic back in the pre-uni days where they actually taught technology.

Latin and Greek were precisely that - incomprehensible but was one of the first schools to offer computer science A level, along with metal work, woodwork, physics, chemistry, 3Rs.

When it came to the arts, they were sadly deficient.

Teaching of both German and French naively assumed the student already had a knowledge of English grammar - but concepts like adverbs, past participles, pronouns etc were something of a mystery having never encountered the same in English classes.

In similar vein I volunteered to learn piano. This was well before the days of electronic keyboards and headphones. Enthusiastic piano students were sat in front of a keyboard with none of the other components normally associated with a piano - hammers, strings, pedals, harp etc.

I learned that middle C was to the right of the screw in the middle of the keyboard - in truth it made no difference as the only sound it made was "clack, clack clack, clack, clack, clack.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

... concepts like adverbs, past participles, pronouns etc were something of a mystery having never encountered the same in English classes.

When my daughter was 4 or 5 years old we used to play a game if we were out in the car. I'd say something like look at that huge pothole, then say look or huge ....... and she'd come back with verb or adjective. It was one big game, she learned basic grammar quickly and easily. It's so much easier with very young children.

 

[Fergie 307]

But one can still read them and let the "negative aspects" emulate the proverbial water off a duck's back. We can't judge past generations for what was perfectly acceptable at the time, not to mention that everything you cite still is regarded as acceptable in many parts of the world. Looking at it dispassionately, aren't we in the West in danger of forcing our view of how we should think, speak and behave onto other people and their culture, while simultaneously criticising Christian missionaries for essentially doing the same thing a couple of centuries ago?

Absolutely. Some of these old authors are very good. Doesnt detract from good writing or a decent plot.

 

[Trainee neophyte]

Might I recommend anything by Patrick Leigh Fermour for those with a hankering for vocabulary. If pressed, I would probably nominate Kipling's "Kim" as my favourite book, despite (or perhaps because of) claims of its rampant racism by those who have never read it.

My mother complains about the need to pronounce every syllable in "ordinarily" and "temporarily"; when she was a gel three syllables were sufficient, but there was a war on at the time so economies had to be made.

Has anyone noticed the de-poshing of the Received Pronunciation? Compare her deceased majesty's cut glass accent to her grandsons' more estuarine oafishness, which they seem to have picked up in the army. Only the most diligently obtuse members of the elite keep their Etonian vowels on show these days - Jacob Rheese-Mog and Boris spring to mind as good examples . It might be a result of the Blair years forcing equalitè, egalitè etc, but I wasn't there so could be wrong.

I probably speak some bizarre, lost in time version of '90s English, given that I left the UK 25 years ago. Britain really is a foreign country for me these days.

 

[Spectric]

Britain really is a foreign country for me these days.

I live in the UK and it is a foreign country to me these days, it really has gone to pot over the last two decades.

 

[Jacob]

......

As for your second post, I will totally agree with you about the fallen standards.

There have been complaints of falling standards from ancient times!

Unfortunately the dismissal of reading as a way to learn, improve your language skills and broaden your mind, along with the intrusion of internet and social media has led to the creation of people who can barely speak and write correctly their native language.

Nonsense. The ""intrusion" of the internet has hugely increased the amount of time people spend writing and communicating, quite obviously. Ditto reading and the popular novel. And a good thing too!

Even worse I'm afraid that after a while all these linguistic atrocities that we hear or read will be regarded as the correct use of the language.

That's how it's aways been. Oddly enough regional accents and dialects change less over time than so-called "received" pronunciation, which is obvious if you ever listen to BBC or regional voices from 50 or more years ago.

P.S.: Dionysios is my actual name

Hi Di!

 

[Phil Pascoe]

if pressed, I would probably nominate Kipling's "Kim" as my favourite book ...

Ahhhh ........... O level English, along with Lord of the Flies.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

An elderly chap made a point the other day about regional accents - he said it seems to be only the Liverpool accent that's got stronger over the years, others have weakened. His parents and grandparents were very working class, living in a poor area but didn't have accents anything like as strong as many younger people have now.
Forty of fifty years ago it wasn't uncommon for me to meet people from 15 or 20 miles south west of here (nearly off the end) that I struggled to understand, but accents that strong are nearly gone now. It's not just the accents that disappear - a friend commented that the Cornish language is being protected, but the Cornish vernacular is disappearing.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

Hi Di!

Hi Di Hi!

 

[thetyreman]

An elderly chap made a point the other day about regional accents - he said it seems to be only the Liverpool accent that's got stronger over the years, others have weakened. His parents and grandparents were very working class, living in a poor area but didn't have accents anything like as strong as many younger people have now.
Forty of fifty years ago it wasn't uncommon for me to meet people from 15 or 20 miles south west of here (nearly off the end) that I struggled to understand, but accents that strong are nearly gone now. It's not just the accents that disappear - a friend commented that the Cornish language is being protected, but the Cornish vernacular is disappearing.

it's the same up north, a mancunian accent from 1910 was radically different to todays manc, which sounds absolutely horrible and nasally in comparison, my great aunt was born in 1900 and she would have learnt to speak from people who grew up in the 19th century, it was much softer sounding and she said some things I've still never heard anyone else say, mostly sayings that are long gone or out of fashion today, one of them was 'get out of it' and she also beat a scally once with her metal walking stick who tried to steal her purse lol

 

[Fergie 307]

I find many regional accents delightful, even if they can be hard work. I used to work for a Scotsman with a very broad glaswegian accent, he also used various expressions and names for things that were incomprehensible to us poor southerners. He would often get my mate and I together to give us some job to do, only for us to stand in complete bewilderment because we could genuinely only understand about every third word. This used to make him very frustrated, which made the accent even worse. His wife also had a very broad accent but you could understand her, so she often had to effectively translate for him. On the other hand I worked with a young lady from South Shields who had the most delightful accent. I could have listened in rapture to her reading a shopping list!

 

[Fergie 307]

it's the same up north, a mancunian accent from 1910 was radically different to todays manc, which sounds absolutely horrible and nasally in comparison, my great aunt was born in 1900 and she would have learnt to speak from people who grew up in the 19th century, it was much softer sounding and she said some things I've still never heard anyone else say, mostly sayings that are long gone or out of fashion today, one of them was 'get out of it' and she also beat a scally once with her metal walking stick who tried to steal her purse lol

it's very good when occasionally you get to hear a recording made many years ago of an interview with someone with a strong regional accent. I think it may have been radio four that did a series of these from the BBC archives a while ago. So sad that they appear to be dying out, or at least being diluted.

 

[JimJay]

There have been complaints of falling standards from ancient times!

Nonsense. The ""intrusion" of the internet has hugely increased the amount of time people spend writing and communicating, quite obviously. Ditto reading and the popular novel. And a good thing too!

That's how it's aways been. Oddly enough regional accents and dialects change less over time than so-called "received" pronunciation, which is obvious if you ever listen to BBC or regional voices from 50 or more years ago.

Hi Di!

The arrival of the internet, and especially soshul meejah, may well have resulted in more time spent on "communication", but I fear that you're confusing quantity with quality...

 

[Jacob]

The arrival of the internet, and especially soshul meejah, may well have resulted in more time spent on "communication", but I fear that you're confusing quantity with quality...

Yes perhaps you are right and it would be better if people didn't try too hard to think, read, and write.
It could give them ideas above their station. No good will come of it.

 

[Jacob]

it's very good when occasionally you get to hear a recording made many years ago of an interview with someone with a strong regional accent. I think it may have been radio four that did a series of these from the BBC archives a while ago. So sad that they appear to be dying out, or at least being diluted.

Even more so with strong "received pronunciation". Regional accents tend to be slightly more stable.

 

[selectortone]

When I first moved down here to Dorset in the early 70s I worked on building sites in places like Sturminster Newton and Bridport for several years. The older guys had very strong Dorset accents, very Thomas Hardy, which I don't hear so much nowadays. There were lots of sayings I picked up on. Two of my favourites were:

In disbelief - "If that's true my pr*ick's a bloater"

And my favourite

Mistrust of strangers- "All the world's queer except me an thee, an I got my doubts about thee"

 

[John Brown]

Might I recommend anything by Patrick Leigh Fermour for those with a hankering for vocabulary. If pressed, I would probably nominate Kipling's "Kim" as my favourite book, despite (or perhaps because of) claims of its rampant racism by those who have never read it.

My mother complains about the need to pronounce every syllable in "ordinarily" and "temporarily"; when she was a gel three syllables were sufficient, but there was a war on at the time so economies had to be made.

Has anyone noticed the de-poshing of the Received Pronunciation? Compare her deceased majesty's cut glass accent to her grandsons' more estuarine oafishness, which they seem to have picked up in the army. Only the most diligently obtuse members of the elite keep their Etonian vowels on show these days - Jacob Rheese-Mog and Boris spring to mind as good examples . It might be a result of the Blair years forcing equalitè, egalitè etc, but I wasn't there so could be wrong.

I probably speak some bizarre, lost in time version of '90s English, given that I left the UK 25 years ago. Britain really is a foreign country for me these days.

I read "A time of gifts" a while back. Loved most of it, but found the last chapter a bit boring. Probably says more about me than him.

 

[JimJay]

Yes perhaps you are right and it would be better if people didn't try too hard to think, read, and write.
It could give them ideas above their station. No good will come of it.

Where on earth did that bizarre interpretation come from? Have been down to t'Chip On Shoulder shop again?

 

[Phil Pascoe]

He owns it.

 

[Jacob]

Where on earth did that bizarre interpretation come from? Have been down to t'Chip On Shoulder shop again?

All very well being snobby about "soshul meejah" but you are indulging in it yourself! Pot calling the kettle!
All in all I think "soshul meejah" is a good thing and gives a voice to the otherwise unheard. More importantly it exposes them to alternative opinions which you won't find in the conservative MSM.