'The Eternal Prisoner'-sculpture

[johnny.t.]

You might also note the number of comments (not from me) in this thread that are really rather careful to praise the skill, technique, form, etc, whilst rather carefully not commenting on meaning.

BugBear

So??

Why have you felt the need to go to my blog, lift some text and put it here, out of context? How has me having a reason behind creating something bothered you enough to feel the need to do this? This is what I don't get?????

Anyway I've got to go back to work now, cutting some lawns for customers and I'll be doing it with no other deeper meaning than making their grass look good!

 

[dennisk]

Well I like it just because it was dreamed up. I dont have to understand art to know if I like it or not. Kind of like red wine, I dont give a damn if some stuffy wine snob likes it or not. All that matters is that I like it, for whatever reason. I would like to know what you are smoking, though, to come up with some of this stuff. Kidding!!! Love it. DK

 

[bugbear]

You might also note the number of comments (not from me) in this thread that are really rather careful to praise the skill, technique, form, etc, whilst rather carefully not commenting on meaning.

BugBear

So??

If you insist. But you won't like it.

Since there are a high number of compliments in this thread, people are clearly motivated enough to praise the aspects of the piece they like. If any of the commentators had felt that the piece expressed a thought or idea well, they'd have said so.

Why have you felt the need to go to my blog, lift some text and put it here, out of context? How has me having a reason behind creating something bothered you enough to feel the need to do this? This is what I don't get?????

Why did I comment? You asked for comments.

I commented on both the appearance of the piece, and how well it represents your intended meaning. In order to express my opinion, I quoted from your intended meaning. I'm not entirely clear on how I could have expressed my opinion without so doing. This is such a normal part of academic criticism there's even a special provision in copyright law for it, it's not like I did something odd.

Why did I go to your blog to read your meaning? Your post specifically invited people to.

BugBear

 

[gus3049]

I think the 'politeness' might have some bearing here.

JT didn't put his interpretation on the forum but on his blog. OK he invited us to see it but having read it and found it irrelevant FOR ME, it seemed best to praise the praiseworthy and not attack someone's else's thought processes. If you disagree with some of the things he expressed there, fair enough, that's your prerogative..

Just because we are invited to comment doesn't mean we have to go to unnecessary lengths to undermine what was presented. Most negative critique here tends to be constructive rather than destructive.

OK we don't need to give this place a 'clique' mentality, but it is still basically a support group and most of us try and keep it friendly. There are ways of expressing disagreement which seems to be a fading art.

At least you praised the object itself.

 

[johnny.t.]

If you insist. But you won't like it.

Since there are a high number of compliments in this thread, people are clearly motivated enough to praise the aspects of the piece they like. If any of the commentators had felt that the piece expressed a thought or idea well, they'd have said so.

Why would I not like it? So now you are such an authority you can speak for others and know whether I like it?

I don't think so......... I am only really interested in why on earth you feel the need? This is what I don't get and have asked you?

Why did I comment? You asked for comments.

I didn't ask why you commented and I like that it drew you're intention enough to comment, again I only really wonder(as stated more than once) why you feel the need?? [/quote]

I commented on both the appearance of the piece, and how well it represents your intended meaning. In order to express my opinion, I quoted from your intended meaning. I'm not entirely clear on how I could have expressed my opinion without so doing. This is such a normal part of academic criticism there's even a special provision in copyright law for it, it's not like I did something odd.

Why did I go to your blog to read your meaning? Your post specifically invited people to.

BugBear

Hmmm, I'm starting to think you are not reading my responses to you properly. I have no where asked you why you read my blog, I'm again happy you did. I asked why you copied and pasted text from it out of context. The words you lifted from my blog were only a description of the meaning of the cage part(as I have already said) and posting them as you did saying "I don't see it in there" is, as I already said pointless as without the parts explaining the rest, it is obvious it will not make sense.

I really don't understand why you have taken exception, not to the work but just because I have given the reasons behind it? Why do you feel the need???

 

[johnny.t.]

Thats me cup of coffee drunk, back to cutting lawns now.........

 

[johnny.t.]

Well I like it just because it was dreamed up. I dont have to understand art to know if I like it or not. Kind of like red wine, I dont give a damn if some stuffy wine snob likes it or not. All that matters is that I like it, for whatever reason. I would like to know what you are smoking, though, to come up with some of this stuff. Kidding!!! Love it. DK

Thanks Dennis

 

[bugbear]

If you insist. But you won't like it.

Since there are a high number of compliments in this thread, people are clearly motivated enough to praise the aspects of the piece they like. If any of the commentators had felt that the piece expressed a thought or idea well, they'd have said so.

Why would I not like it? So now you are such an authority you can speak for others and know whether I like it?

I'm not speaking for others. I'm interpreting what others have said. You presumably read and interpreted their posts too.

If any of them feel I've misinterpreted them, I'm sure they'll be along to correct me,. That's fine too.

I don't think so......... I am only really interested in why on earth you feel the need? This is what I don't get and have asked you?

Why did I comment? You asked for comments.

I didn't ask why you commented and I like that it drew you're intention enough to comment, again I only really wonder(as stated more than once) why you feel the need??

I commented on both the appearance of the piece, and how well it represents your intended meaning. In order to express my opinion, I quoted from your intended meaning. I'm not entirely clear on how I could have expressed my opinion without so doing. This is such a normal part of academic criticism there's even a special provision in copyright law for it, it's not like I did something odd.

Why did I go to your blog to read your meaning? Your post specifically invited people to.

BugBear

Hmmm, I'm starting to think you are not reading my responses to you properly. I have no where asked you why you read my blog, I'm again happy you did. I asked why you copied and pasted text from it out of context. The words you lifted from my blog were only a description of the meaning of the cage part(as I have already said) and posting them as you did saying "I don't see it in there" is, as I already said pointless as without the parts explaining the rest, it is obvious it will not make sense.

I really don't understand why you have taken exception, not to the work but just because I have given the reasons behind it? Why do you feel the need???

We seem to be struggling with mutual incomprehension. The need to what?

I certainly haven't taken exception to you giving the reasons (previously called "thoughts") behind the piece.

I just don't see them expressed in the piece, and I've tried to express this as clearly as possible.

That's (obviously) IMHO. I took it for granted this entire thread was opinions, by its nature.

BugBear

 

[nev]

A sculptural piece with a pyro decorated sphere inside a pierced skeleton sphere through which it will not fit! The ring is 11" wide and 2" thick, its been heavily carved,ebonised and silver added to the high spots. I won't waffle on about the meaning of it here but a detailed explaination of the thoughts behind it is posted on my blog if anyone is interested.
This is also my 3rd woodturning anniversary piece(I first put tool to wood in October 2008)

Comments and critiques are very much more than welcome.

Skilfully crafted, and aesthetically pleasing.

However, I flatly defy anyone to deduce/guess your ideas behind it without reading your text, which means that the ideas are only in the text and not the piece itself.

BugBear

BB with this deduction could you please tell me the meaning behind these....

or this....

or this...

i think what i am trying to say is that what the artist wanted to represent was to them represented. to the onlooker it is an object with no apparent meaning. i can make my own deductions as to what it represents or i can read the label and see if i can see what the artist wanted me to see. i can then agree or disagree, see or not see what they represent.
in this case what johnny expresses in his blog makes sense to me as regards the object, did i see this or the 'meaning' of this or any of the above items when i first saw them? No. i like it or i dont. in this case , i do .

 

[johnny.t.]

If you insist. But you won't like it.

Since there are a high number of compliments in this thread, people are clearly motivated enough to praise the aspects of the piece they like. If any of the commentators had felt that the piece expressed a thought or idea well, they'd have said so.

Why would I not like it? So now you are such an authority you can speak for others and know whether I like it?

I'm not speaking for others. I'm interpreting what others have said. You presumably read and interpreted their posts too.

If any of them feel I've misinterpreted them, I'm sure they'll be along to correct me,. That's fine too.

I doubt they would, they probably(if they can be bothered to read it all) just wonder why the hell you feel the need to keep posting on this thread(like I do) Why do you feel the need? (are you getting it yet??)

I don't think so......... I am only really interested in why on earth you feel the need? This is what I don't get and have asked you?

Why did I comment? You asked for comments.

I didn't ask why you commented and I like that it drew you're intention enough to comment, again I only really wonder(as stated more than once) why you feel the need??

I commented on both the appearance of the piece, and how well it represents your intended meaning. In order to express my opinion, I quoted from your intended meaning. I'm not entirely clear on how I could have expressed my opinion without so doing. This is such a normal part of academic criticism there's even a special provision in copyright law for it, it's not like I did something odd.

Why did I go to your blog to read your meaning? Your post specifically invited people to.

BugBear

Hmmm, I'm starting to think you are not reading my responses to you properly. I have no where asked you why you read my blog, I'm again happy you did. I asked why you copied and pasted text from it out of context. The words you lifted from my blog were only a description of the meaning of the cage part(as I have already said) and posting them as you did saying "I don't see it in there" is, as I already said pointless as without the parts explaining the rest, it is obvious it will not make sense.


I really don't understand why you have taken exception, not to the work but just because I have given the reasons behind it? Why do you feel the need???

We seem to be struggling with mutual incomprehension. The need to what?

I certainly haven't taken exception to you giving the reasons (previously called "thoughts") behind the piece.

I just don't see them expressed in the piece, and I've tried to express this as clearly as possible.

That's (obviously) IMHO. I took it for granted this entire thread was opinions, by its nature.

BugBear

Thoughts, reasons for, reasons behind, ideas behind are all interchangeable in this way as you well know! This sort of thing is exactly why I keep asking you why do you feel the need? Why do you feel the need to put something as pointless and irrelevant as that?

In a nutshell bugbear, i just wan't to know why you feel the need to keep posting here, you're first comment was fair enough and I answered it in the way that I saw it but then you seemed to 'feel the need' to continue twisting and turning and keep on posting (by twisting and turning I refer to the bit where a circle wasn't the sun or any other planet etc just because you were thinking about it as you made it{quite right but thats got nothing to do with my thinking in a piece}, this suggests you think there should be an obvious visual representation of the meaning{art isn't always like that} as someone else pointed out you were talking about model making, then in your next post you suddenly didn't think it needed to be obvious at first{a twist or turn in your reasoning}. I genuinely wonder why on earth you feel the need to do this, it seems apparent that it must have annoyed you in some way. I then wondered why you felt the need to take text from my blog (which critique was not asked for) and reproduced it here out of context and guess what, I wondered, thats right I thought to myself "Why does this bugbear person feel the need to do this?"

How many more pointless posts are you going to feel the need to make just because I had an idea, which led to a design that in turn led to a piece being physically made.

Again I'm mostly wondering why on earth you feel the need? You after all made your point with your first post.

 

[gus3049]

I for one have had enough of this thread and will post nothing else to it. What was a perfectly reasonable request for the usual comment and critique has turned into something else.

 

[bugbear]

Again I'm mostly wondering why on earth you feel the need? You after all made your point with your first post.

Well, I though the point of this forum was discussion.

But the thread can end here.

BugBear

 

[johnny.t.]

Again I'm mostly wondering why on earth you feel the need? You after all made your point with your first post.

Well, I though the point of this forum was discussion.

Errr, it is for discussion, but you haven't really been discussing anything, it seems to me that my sharing of the thoughts(ideas, reasons, blah, blah) on my blog that were behind my piece seemed to get your goat, you haven't answered anything I've asked(or others asked) and just seem to want to waffle(argue) or whatever in a non helpful non productive kind of way. Thats not really the spirit of the forum is it??

At least you have decided to leave it there :roll:

 

[Jacob]

...... you ........ just seem to want to waffle(argue) or whatever in a non helpful non productive kind of way. Thats not really the spirit of the forum is it??

Well said.
You are not alone johnny.t.
He does it all over the place. PITA.
He's got a bit of a chip on his shoulder but I don't think it's from doing any woodwork! :lol: :lol:

 

[Philip Streeting]

Johnny, take this as trying to be helpful and not as a criticism.

Read what BugBear has actually said not what you think or wish to interpret he might be saying.

An artist or craftsperson should never invite comment and criticism if he/she is not prepared to see any that are contrary to a view of ideas held and expressed in a piece of work produced from them.

Sometimes written responses can say more about the artist than their art. A critic will respond to this too – it is part of a critical response. The artist or craftsperson is the ‘work’, it is their thoughts and sources of inspiration that are contained within the work presented. If the work is produced and placed it in an art category there is always an invitation for the viewer to respond to the ideas as well as the craft aspect of a piece.

Everyone is entitled to an opinion and if that opinion is not in sync with a personal one - that’s life sometimes. Accept the right of someone else to express a different view, think on it, learn from it, thank the critic and move on.

Phil

 

[Philip Streeting]

Jacob,

It is sad that you feel the need to attack the person rather than enter into a discussion about the views and ideas they have expressed.

The chip on the shoulder you mention may well be attributed incorrectly.

Phil

 

[johnny.t.]

Johnny, take this as trying to be helpful and not as a criticism.

Read what BugBear has actually said not what you think or wish to interpret he might be saying.

An artist or craftsperson should never invite comment and criticism if he/she is not prepared to see any that are contrary to a view of ideas held and expressed in a piece of work produced from them.

Sometimes written responses can say more about the artist than their art. A critic will respond to this too – it is part of a critical response. The artist or craftsperson is the ‘work’, it is their thoughts and sources of inspiration that are contained within the work presented. If the work is produced and placed it in an art category there is always an invitation for the viewer to respond to the ideas as well as the craft aspect of a piece.

Everyone is entitled to an opinion and if that opinion is not in sync with a personal one - that’s life sometimes. Accept the right of someone else to express a different view, think on it, learn from it, thank the critic and move on.

Phil

Phil,
I cannot disagree with any of that but in this case I feel the person was just being a purposeful irritant. My mistake was to become irritated and involved in a pointless discussion with them. Gordon's first post to the piece was more or less identical in view to bugbear's and this caused me no irritation as bugbears first post explaining his opinion did not. The subsequent posts from bugbear just seemed there to annoy and not to bring anything relevant to the discussion, it was/is stupid of me to bite.....


From Phil's above thoughts I can see I must be coming over in this thread as wanting only critique that is positive. I can honestly say this is not the case, I appreciate anyone and everyones honest opinion, whoever they are, woodturners or not, skilled or not, whatever this may be, positive or negative.

 

[bugbear]

The subsequent posts from bugbear just seemed there to annoy and not to bring anything relevant to the discussion, it was/is stupid of me to bite.....

Each and every one of those posts was me expressing my sincere opinion as clearly as I could. You and I really do seem to have a strong mutual incomprehension. :-(

BugBear