Tails or Pins first - Does it matter?

[Sam_Jack]

Not certain if this is even the right spot to mention such, but it does concern ‘hand-tools’, use of at least. A good mate dropped in; I’d had just finished laying out a ‘toy box’ for a child; a simple enough thing; the usual with dovetails a bottom and a lid, not fancy but functional. Anyway, first time ever, distracted, gas-bagging with my visitor – I cut and chopped out the tails first, only pins left. Never, not ever, done that before.

No problem think’s I – just cut the tails to suit; you can do it. Alas. Not a mess, I hasten to say, but ‘strange’. It is ridiculous, the pins were neat, tidy and I did get the tails to fit ‘neat and reasonably nice’; but a strange experience.

I know some cut ‘pins’ first, as a matter of routine. I can’t think of one good reason not to – technically – but never again. Not ever. Thought to share that, I daresay I could become accustomed to doing things that way – if pushed. But is it habit, convention, practice or, is there good reason not to cut the pins first. Curious; that’s all.

 

[woodbrains]

Hello,

It is what you get used to doing. Dovetailing is about doing over and over until the technique is perfected, and if you start tails first, that is what you program yourself to do. Doing it the other way will seem strange.

I cut pins first, and I think it is better, actually. I did do tails first for quite a few years, then visited America, where the college did pins first. I thought I'd try it whilst I was there and after a bit if practice, count it better. Some dovetails can only be cut that way (secret mitred and double lapped) and single entry dovetails are much easier to transfer when marking out through the bigger pin gaps. I also find that they can be marked entirely with pencil this way, so less fussy than a knife.

I don't think you should necessarily change if you have dovetailing set in your mind, but I think it is better pins first and would teach a beginner this way for sure.

Mike.

 

[AndyT]

If you look around, as you have, you'll find plenty of people preferring one way to the other. They all manage to make joints, so both ways work.

So stick to what you prefer.

Which end do you open your boiled eggs?

(But for completeness, I should point out that tails first can be quicker, since several boards can be pinned or cramped together, then all cut together.)

 

[Beau]

I have always done tails first. It's just the way I was taught but think the reason given was that it was easier to mark tails from the pins than vice versa. Cant see it matters if you get the results you require.

 

[woodbrains]

I have always done tails first. It's just the way I was taught but think the reason given was that it was easier to mark tails from the pins than vice versa. Cant see it matters if you get the results you require.

Hello,

That is contradictory, but it is never clear what is pins or tails, unless there is a definition and these things are named. Pins would be the bit of wood left after cutting away the tail sockets. For instance the pins would be on a drawer front. Tails would be on the drawer side, and the gaps between are the pin sockets. Now that is sorted, tails are easier to mark when the pins are cut, especially when the pin sockets are very narrow. So it makes sense to cut these first.

Incidentally, gang cutting tails is no faster, as cutting twice as thick takes longer, assuming the same saw is used. You could use a coarser saw to speed things up, but then you'll get rougher cuts. And there would be nothing stopping you using a coarser saw on a single board and speed that up. All things being equal, there is no speed advantage in gang cutting. People seem to mention that a lot, it is one if those things that just seem to be repeated without any thought. The time saving with gang cutting is in the marking out; you have to do less of it!

Mike.

 

[custard]

Mike, how do you handle work holding with pins first? And do you use pins first for both through and for half lap dovetails?

I agree that the transfer is simpler with pins first, and furthermore I suspect that it's the transfer that most people struggle with (once they've cracked the basic mechanics of sawing to a line of course). It's always seemed to me that there's something inherently awkward about sawing to preserve a knife line?

I've cut dovetails both ways, I default to tails first which I guess is the traditional British preference, but I suspect that pins first (which I see as much more common on the continent) might on balance be the more sensible method.

 

[woodbrains]

Mike, how do you handle work holding with pins first? And do you use pins first for both through and for half lap dovetails?

I agree that the transfer is simpler with pins first, and furthermore I suspect that it's the transfer that most people struggle with (once they've cracked the basic mechanics of sawing to a line of course). It's always seemed to me that there's something inherently awkward about sawing to preserve a knife line?

I've cut dovetails both ways, I default to tails first which I guess is the traditional British preference, but I suspect that pins first (which I see as much more common on the continent) might on balance be the more sensible method.

Hello,

I have an L shaped support board, made precisely at 90 deg, clamp the short leg to the bench and the long leg supports the work upright. I can clamp the work to it, if I feel the need.

Mike.

 

[custard]

I have an L shaped support board

Thanks for that, I thought that's what you'd say.

Does that one fixture do you for all your dovetailing or do you have a large and small version? And what's the rough dimensions for the fixture that you've found works best?

I've also seen pins first craftsmen using sash cramps for the transfer on bigger jobs, securing the pin board vertically direct to a tail board that's laying flat on the edge of the bench. A couple of times I've made simple benches for clients out of three components, where the legs are through dovetailed to the top. This was the transfer method I decided to use. Using boards about 35mm thick was interesting, I'm normally fairly confident about delivering gap free dovetails but I really struggled with thick boards. It took me a few practise goes and eventually I settled on the pins first method as more reliable in this context. I've often subsequently thought maybe I should just dump tails first and switch completely to pins first? I've spoken to French and German makers who think we're all barmy for using tails first!

 

[woodbrains]

I have an L shaped support board

Thanks for that, I thought that's what you'd say.

Does that one fixture do you for all your dovetailing or do you have a large and small version? And what's the rough dimensions for the fixture that you've found works best?

I've also seen pins first craftsmen using sash cramps for the transfer on bigger jobs, securing the pin board vertically direct to a tail board that's laying flat on the edge of the bench. A couple of times I've made simple benches for clients out of three components, where the legs are through dovetailed to the top. This was the transfer method I decided to use. Using boards about 35mm thick was interesting, I'm normally fairly confident about delivering gap free dovetails but I really struggled with thick boards. It took me a few practise goes and eventually I settled on the pins first method as more reliable in this context. I've often subsequently thought maybe I should just dump tails first and switch completely to pins first? I've spoken to French and German makers who think we're all barmy for using tails first!

Hello,

I have one about 12 in by 18 in for the length of the L and about 6 in wide. It does me for any drawers I do.

TBH since I have stopped working professionally, I don't do too many dovetails, mainly because it has taken so long to get my shed into a reasonable place to work. Just last week I put my extractor in a lean to shed and ran some ducting to get better extraction for my machines and freed up a little space. Now I have a more comfortable working environment, I will resume doing some finer work and get back into some more gratifying joint making. The last time I did some carcase dovetailing, I just knocked up an L board from softwood ply and a few screws and gussets. It must have been 18 by 24 inches for the L and about 24 wide. I don't have room in the shed to keep something this big, but I guess next time I make one, I'll do it with barrel bolts or something so I can flat store it.

Mike.

 

[Beau]

I have always done tails first. It's just the way I was taught but think the reason given was that it was easier to mark tails from the pins than vice versa. Cant see it matters if you get the results you require.

Hello,

That is contradictory, but it is never clear what is pins or tails, unless there is a definition and these things are named. Pins would be the bit of wood left after cutting away the tail sockets. For instance the pins would be on a drawer front. Tails would be on the drawer side, and the gaps between are the pin sockets. Now that is sorted, tails are easier to mark when the pins are cut, especially when the pin sockets are very narrow. So it makes sense to cut these first.

Incidentally, gang cutting tails is no faster, as cutting twice as thick takes longer, assuming the same saw is used. You could use a coarser saw to speed things up, but then you'll get rougher cuts. And there would be nothing stopping you using a coarser saw on a single board and speed that up. All things being equal, there is no speed advantage in gang cutting. People seem to mention that a lot, it is one if those things that just seem to be repeated without any thought. The time saving with gang cutting is in the marking out; you have to do less of it!

Mike.

Maybe I am misunderstanding here but if you cut the tails first (the draw side) you lay this over the end grain of the draw front and back and mark through the pin slot to mark the pins. Nice vertical marking with no obstruction. If do the pins first you have to mark through the gap which is dictated by the length of the pins. If making nice thin draw sides this gap could be pretty small so very tricky to mark out. This is based on using a thin marking knife and not pencil marks.

 

[knockknock]

...
Incidentally, gang cutting tails is no faster, as cutting twice as thick takes longer, assuming the same saw is used. You could use a coarser saw to speed things up, but then you'll get rougher cuts. And there would be nothing stopping you using a coarser saw on a single board and speed that up. All things being equal, there is no speed advantage in gang cutting. People seem to mention that a lot, it is one if those things that just seem to be repeated without any thought. The time saving with gang cutting is in the marking out; you have to do less of it!

Mike.

You conveniently left out the time between cuts, which is halved when gang cutting.

Gang cutting is a process on through and half blind dovetails. Knife the base line full length on the inside of both pieces. Put the pieces together outside face to outside face. When sawing there is no breakout on the outside face, and you have a baseline to view on both sides of your saw cut. After sawing, knife the base line on the outside faces only where needed (no extra base line showing or needing to be removed).

On through and half blind dovetails. Transferring the pins to the tailboard being easier, is skewed by the size of the pins (smaller being easier). I come from the uncouth states, so I can make my pins as large as I want. For awkward boards transferring pins can still have advantages (depending).

For me, being under skilled, there are also other advantages to doing tails first. I can adjust/fix the baseline of the tails without effecting the fit of the joint. I find it easier to get the angle correct when sawing the pins, then when tilting the saw for tails.

 

[Trafalgar]

I have always done tails first. It's just the way I was taught but think the reason given was that it was easier to mark tails from the pins than vice versa. Cant see it matters if you get the results you require.

Hello,

That is contradictory, but it is never clear what is pins or tails, unless there is a definition and these things are named. Pins would be the bit of wood left after cutting away the tail sockets. For instance the pins would be on a drawer front. Tails would be on the drawer side, and the gaps between are the pin sockets. Now that is sorted, tails are easier to mark when the pins are cut, especially when the pin sockets are very narrow. So it makes sense to cut these first.

Incidentally, gang cutting tails is no faster, as cutting twice as thick takes longer, assuming the same saw is used. You could use a coarser saw to speed things up, but then you'll get rougher cuts. And there would be nothing stopping you using a coarser saw on a single board and speed that up. All things being equal, there is no speed advantage in gang cutting. People seem to mention that a lot, it is one if those things that just seem to be repeated without any thought. The time saving with gang cutting is in the marking out; you have to do less of it!

Mike.

Maybe I am misunderstanding here but if you cut the tails first (the draw side) you lay this over the end grain of the draw front and back and mark through the pin slot to mark the pins. Nice vertical marking with no obstruction. If do the pins first you have to mark through the gap which is dictated by the length of the pins. If making nice thin draw sides this gap could be pretty small so very tricky to mark out. This is based on using a thin marking knife and not pencil marks.

Working pins first, you usually will be working in a gap about 3/8" to 1/2" "tall" (the thickness of a drawer side) and using a marking awl. Not a problem.

 

[woodbrains]

Working pins first, you usually will be working in a gap about 3/8" to 1/2" "tall" (the thickness of a drawer side) and using a marking awl. Not a problem.

Hello,

And the thinner the stock the less distance the marking tool has to be inserted into the joint. I've done drawers with sides as thin as 3/16 in and there is no restriction on marking through the tail sockets.

Also, gang sawing tails first really only saves time in the marking out. You might get a marginal speed advantage between cuts, but that will be negated by aligning two boards together in the vice and not letting any slip when swapping to the other end. The time difference is not the deal breaker it is pretty much a swings and roundabouts sort of thing.

But pins first, especially when doing half blinds enables us to fuss as much as we need to get the sockets clean square and sharp cornered, without worrying about paring away the fit, which is the crucial bit. This leaves us the easier cuts on the tails, which are marked from the now perfect pin board.

Mike.

 

[Trafalgar]

Agree completely. At the end of the day, one simply has more room to work when going pins first. I've done 'em both ways and can understand the reasoning behind having the payoff cuts be straight down the board rather than at an angle but at the end of the day this concern takes care of itself with a few joints under your belt.

Gang cutting only works when drawers are not graduated, which other than for a few exceptions, is pretty much never. I guess you could gang cut each drawer's two sides (in a bank of graduated drawers), a savings in time of basically nothing. Gang cutting would work in an all hand-tool shop if a guy was making drawers for four or five copies of the same piece. Then, you could gang cut the sides for five bottom drawers, five next-to-bottom drawers, and on up the piece. In a one-off shop, it doesn't accomplish a thing. Put yourself in a time machine and go back to a piece-work shop from three hundred years ago then you might need to consider it.

 

[Sam_Jack]

Got curious, found some off-cuts, squared up and played away. Pins first, give it a fair go, the first attempt, previously mentioned was not deliberate, took me by surprise; this time my old wooden head was prepared. Its not a bad way of doing things, cut eight in Pine (good stuff) and eight in American Oak.

Must say the results in Pine were only acceptable; but the Oak worked out very nicely indeed, the harder wood allowed a little more precision and a cleaner cut. Not sure I’ll adopt ‘pins first’ as my preferred method, old habits and all that, but it is a good method, Just need to remember I’m using it, lest I end up with lots of pins and no tails; or vice versa. Anyway, I’ve learned something new which pleases me.

 

[Trafalgar]

Either way is fine, with a couple of exceptions that require pins to be cut first, and you could have a stunning career and never need to cut one of these iterations.

 

[G S Haydon]

As a joiner my dovetailing is pretty limited during work hours. When I did begin cutting them I started with tails first. As time has moved on I've found I prefer pins first for the reasons Mike mentions. The biggest advantage for me has been just using a pencil for the marking.
Charles' dry and direct responses pretty much sum the whole thing up.

 

[D_W]

Either way is fine, with a couple of exceptions that require pins to be cut first, and you could have a stunning career and never need to cut one of these iterations.

One of those would be cutting tiny pins. It took me a ridiculously long time (as a tails first person) to figure out that it just makes more sense to cut those pins first so that you can just use a pencil to mark them quickly.

(I missed that you already said that because most of your posts are hidden when I view something).

It's not a bad idea for someone who is going to be in the shop trying to make things (rather than practice things) to be able to cut them both ways and be comfortable.

 

[Jacob]

I always think in terms of 'pins' and 'pin holes'. Saves confusion.
The most commonest and easiest DT is the little pin single kerf pattern (a.k.a. 'London' pattern for no good reason) and the size is dictated by the saw kerf as you saw out the pin holes. If you did the pins first you'd have a job to judge them to exactly fit the single kerf pin hole and that would defeat the object.
So it's holes first.
Once you've got that sorted then any other shape size of DT you'd do the same way.
'Gang' cutting is virtually impossible as the precision required to over-cut each pinhole by a gnats just doesn't happen in practice. Endless fiddling about getting the gauge marks lined up and then rectifying the errors. No time saving at all, in fact the opposite. Except they were done in pairs, and speed, including over-cutting, is then easy.

 

[Trafalgar]

Either way is fine, with a couple of exceptions that require pins to be cut first, and you could have a stunning career and never need to cut one of these iterations.

One of those would be cutting tiny pins. It took me a ridiculously long time (as a tails first person) to figure out that it just makes more sense to cut those pins first so that you can just use a pencil to mark them quickly.

(I missed that you already said that because most of your posts are hidden when I view something).

It's not a bad idea for someone who is going to be in the shop trying to make things (rather than practice things) to be able to cut them both ways and be comfortable.

I have rarely cut them narrower than around 3/16ths or so but these look good at a 1:6 slope I think and are meaty enough. I use an awl to mark these, though I have used a pencil. I'm quite a fan of antiques and have seen my share (bought and sold many as well) and I've never seen one with very narrow pins that didn't have at least some missing shards at the narrow pin end on a few of the pins at a minimum. Finding one otherwise would be like finding an 18th century English antique on which every surface was veneered, even the mouldings, and there wasn't a single crack anywhere -- unlikely to exist. These sorts of 'defects' can result in a lot of charm, but a falling-apart drawer loses most if not all of its charm.