Steel experts?

[MIGNAL]

I bought a used ECE wood plane off the bay and before I send it back I would like to confirm my suspicions.
I can't get the blade sharp! Ok I can just about get it sharp enough to shave hair (only just) but the edge becomes cheese in no time. I suspect it has been overheated. I've ground back, probably 1 mm or so - to no avail. What I have noticed is that very few sparks are produced on the grinder, much less so than the other Plane blades that I have.
Is that another symptom of a blade that has been overheated?

 

[marcros]

i could possibly get it hardness tested for you at work if it helps. where in west yorks are you?

 

[Cheshirechappie]

A 'quick and dirty' check would be to try running a file over the cutter, say on the side or the back edge, and see it bites. If it does, the whole cutter is too soft for duty. If the file just skates across the steel, it's hard enough.

(Some tools, such as brace bits, are just about soft enough to file, but are hard enough for duty. That would be true only for low-speed tools, though. Machine cutters should be hard enough to take many thousands of cuts before needing sharpening, and tough enough to withstand whacking into the wood once per revolution of the cutter block. I'd be very surprised if any decent machine cutter bit could be cut with a standard file.)

 

[MIGNAL]

I thought of the file but decided against it because I can always return the item.
Thanks for the kind offer Marcros but I don't think it's worth the bother. It's certainly on the soft side because the edge is turning over too readily. What confuses me is why so few sparks are being produced.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

You can't try it with a file, because you can always return it...................but you've already ground it....?

 

[MIGNAL]

Yes that's correct. A ground bevel appears quite normal, that's what woodworkers do with Plane blades.
A groove cause by a file may give a reason for dispute. All fairly logical IMO.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

Yes, I've been known to grind a plane iron - but my point was that a file mark isn't going to damage an iron, whereas if you're arguing with a supplier that the steel is soft, surely their first get out clause is that you softened it grinding it badly.

 

[arnoldmason8]

Hi MIGNAL ---If it does not produce bright white sparks with star bursts then the steel is only a low carbon mild steel and it will not be hard. If it is a laminated blade the high carbon part may have been ground away leaving just the mild steel part and a useless tool!!
The best way to familarise youself with the sparks from varous steels is to try some known ones-- Try some tool steel from another tool and try some mild steel and compare the sparks given off. Just a thought-- High speed steel gives off quite dull reddish sparks without any star bursts so try a HS drill bit and compare although I can't imagine that the blade is HS steel.

Best of luck ------Arnold

 

[o0dunk0o]

Why are you going to send it back?
Replacement irons are quite reasonably priced for ECE planes have a look here: http://www.fine-tools.com/hobele.htm

Unless you paid a lot for it (close to the price of a new one) I'd just get a new blade :wink:

 

[MIGNAL]

Why on earth would I buy a 'User Plane' on Ebay with a useless blade? By the time I've paid for that blade + the shipping, I may as well have gone out and bought a brand new ECE Plane!
Seriously guys. This isn't difficult to understand.
Thanks for your informative reply Arnold. I am familiar with the sparks produced by O1 and HSS. This blade is producing hardly any sparks and certainly nowhere near as many as my Stanleys, Records, Veritas, Ray Isles . . . which is why I posed the question in the first place. My Chinese HSS blade produces very few sparks too but i can get that seriously sharp. Of course it holds an edge for a long time. This one holds an edge for micro seconds.
Judging by the length of the blade (to the keyhole) I doubt that it's gone past the original hardened area. That leaves the possibility that it has been overheated (it appears to be 'normal colour') or the blade was somehow defective in the manufacturing.

 

[MIGNAL]

Yes, I've been known to grind a plane iron - but my point was that a file mark isn't going to damage an iron, whereas if you're arguing with a supplier that the steel is soft, surely their first get out clause is that you softened it grinding it badly.

Where did I say that I ground it badly?
It would be pretty difficult for me to soften it considering that I grind on a Handcrank with a White wheel. I've yet to overheat one single piece of cutting steel in over 30 years of woodworking!

 

[Phil Pascoe]

Who said you ground it badly? I merely pointed out that someone else could say that. From your replies to my posts and others, it is perfectly obvious you know far more than us, so I wonder why you ask any questions in the first place.
I shall now leave you in peace. Have nice night.
Phil.

 

[o0dunk0o]

Why on earth would I buy a 'User Plane' on Ebay with a useless blade? By the time I've paid for that blade + the shipping, I may as well have gone out and bought a brand new ECE Plane!

Apologies I was only trying to help. I know from experience that good used Ece planes don't often come up on ebay often so personally I'd rather pay £25 for a new blade to get a good usable plane than pay £7-8 on postage sending it back and going through the refunds process.

I would say though if it had been badly ground/overheated you'd need to grind off more than 1mm to get back to decent steel.

Also why would you file a grove in it to test it? Running a flat file over the full width of the cutting edge would look like sharpening marks if the file did bite.

 

[MIGNAL]

Crikey phil.p.!
Here's my original question:

'What I have noticed is that very few sparks are produced on the grinder, much less so than the other Plane blades that I have.
Is that another symptom of a blade that has been overheated?'

That's all. Nothing more, nothing less. I didn't claim to be an expert on tool steel. I didn't even ask if the blade was soft (I know that it is). Nor did I ask if I had the right to return it. None of that.

 

[MIGNAL]

Why on earth would I buy a 'User Plane' on Ebay with a useless blade? By the time I've paid for that blade + the shipping, I may as well have gone out and bought a brand new ECE Plane!

Apologies I was only trying to help. I know from experience that good used Ece planes don't often come up on ebay often so personally I'd rather pay £25 for a new blade to get a good usable plane than pay £7-8 on postage sending it back and going through the refunds process.

I would say though if it had been badly ground/overheated you'd need to grind off more than 1mm to get back to decent steel.

Also why would you file a grove in it to test it? Running a flat file over the full width of the cutting edge would look like sharpening marks if the file did bite.

I understand. The ECE that I bought was the cheaper one with the wedge. I once had the Primus and sold it on because I disliked the lengthy time it took to remove the blade. Apart from that, a very fine Plane - which is why I opted for the simple wedged version. That actual blade would cost more than I paid for the Plane, the two together about the price of a new ECE Plane, including the shipping.
I don't really need to (or want to) send the Plane back, although I don't think I'm being unfair in complaining about the blade. I have other options such as grinding one of my cast steel blades down to 48 mm's.
You are right about the file. It probably wouldn't do much harm. Then again I doubt that there is much to gain from doing that because I know the steel is soft - it simply turns over far too readily.
Anyway, my point was about soft/hard steel and the sparks. I'll try grind off more and see if I can get to decent steel.

 

[SteveW1000]

As far as I know varying hardness wont effect the type of sparks you get from grinding. All sources just list the colour and type of spark from various steels and cast iron. An option would be to ask whether one of members with heat treating equipment would re-harden the blade for you for beer tokens. The blade should be good steel but may have just missed the heat treatment at the factory things happen.

Steve