Stairs: Need to build some

[Lukey]

The Stair Shop
18 Greg St
Stockport, SK5 7BR
0161 477 8077

Map:

http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?hl=en&ie= ... d&z=14&t=m

 

[EdK]

Oh well... guess I'm learning the hard way

I live in Guernsey - the one place that has a stair cutting machine charges about £2000 or so for a straight flight in hardwood.

Anyway - have made a template for the treads - 19mm mdf.
I just drew it out and then worked up to the line with the bush guide on - made a dummy one from 19mm ply and this was bout 0.5mm too large so was a bit more careful with the mdf one.

Seems to give a good fit with a few dummy cuts on some ply.

Wedges:
I went for 3mm back and 3mm down from the pointy end and then over 250mm dropped to 22mm. Not 1:7 but it looks right to me - might live to regret it ?

Anyway - the riser template should be easier I guess.

THanks for all the advice.
Ed

 

[EdK]

WIP....

Made some scotias at the weekend out of the side of the risers and then ripped the risers to the right width after trimming the scotias off.

Made a slot in the top of each tread to take the bottom of each riser. This is a 12.7mm wide by 6.5mm deep slot and the risers are 21mm thick so all I need to do now is cut a bit out of the bottom of the risers so they snuggly fit in the tread slot.

Also have to work out whether it is better to nail the scotias to the treads (and allow movement with the riser) or to router a 3mm deep groove under the tread nose and sink the scotias in and glue them.

A mate thinks either way is doomed to failure (get a disheartening Saturday visit each week to tell me that I am ar$ing it all up...) as one will have nail hole visibility and the other will be hard to clamp and hard to make an accurate groove.

After that a spot of newel work...
And then a spot o gluing and clamping.

I have Titebond (two medium sized tubes - the green one) is this good enough ?

Also what is a good clamping strategy?
Sash cramps I may be able to borrow but if not is there another way ? Should I be clamping lightly every foot or so?

Anyway, will take some more pics which should be a bit clearer.
Thanks for any help - I seem to be stumbling through my first project with some useful prods - thanks - Ed

 

[steve tighe]

Also have to work out whether it is better to nail the scotias to the treads (and allow movement with the riser) or to router a 3mm deep groove under the tread nose and sink the scotias in and glue them.

Also what is a good clamping strategy?
Sash cramps I may be able to borrow but if not is there another way ? Should I be clamping lightly every foot or so?

You need to glue the risers into the thread grooves,don't worry too much about the fixings through the back of the riser into the thread below it yet.The scotia mouldings can be glued & pinned to the thread & riser,there won't be enough movement to affect it but these need putting on after the stairs has been put together (sorry if that sounds obvious).

As for cramping the stairs together,then no,there isn't really an easier way to put them together,cramps over every 2nd thread and alternated on both sides of the string will see the string trenches sitting alright over the treads & risers.As long as there's no visible gaps between the edges of the risers & treads & the trenching out you should be ok.

Check that the faces of the risers & treads are almost up to the trenching lines even if you've got to belt them into place with a hammer & block before cutting the wedges,if you've free-handed the trenching with a dove-tail bit then this'll give you quite a bit of play as far as wedge tolerances are concerned,once you're happy with how everything's sitting then cut a few practice wedges just to get them spot on,a stair wedge should be tight-ish 3/4 into the trench,the last 1/4 taken up with a hammer.You don't need to glue the treads & risers into the strings,just the wedges.

The riser wedges always have to be the first ones driven home,you'll have gaps in the riser lines if you do it the other way round,also by dove-tailing the trenching any discrepancies in the routering will be lost & you get a tighter joint.

Also,make sure before you cramp the stairs up you've enough support underneath the bottom string,just eye the top string through to see if it straight-ish.

Stairs will flex a bit which can be got out through fixing but not if the treads & risers are glued into the strings,they seem complicated things to make but generally they're not,hope this helps a bit.

The pictures look ok.

 

[EdK]

Thanks for all the advice...

Been busy with other things but getting back to the stairs now.

Couple of questions:

1 - Newels
I was going to buy 50 x 200 pse (so maybe 46 x 196) and cut down the centre and glue together to make something like 90 x 90 (in ash).

As for gluing my only experience has been with making wooden spearguns from teak and also one from sapele and maple. I reversed the laminates to stop movement.
I was going to do this for the newels but a joiner mate told me to have the grain going the same way (ie if you look from the top and the rings are like this (( rather than () or )(.
I used West System slow cure for the teak spearguns but have Titebond for this staircase.

When they are joined do you cut the mortise through the glue line or through the wood? ie -|| or |i|

2 - easy one but thought I'd check - Wedges - cut along the grain ?

3 - suitable wood and manner to make draw bore piece for newel join ?

Cheers
Ed

 

[Digit]

Just to tell of a tale or two.
My family moved into an 18C ex coach house some years ago, and when I crawled through the hatch into the attics I found that they were plastered, wired, roof lights and carpeted.
Somebody had removed the staircase and sealed the ceiling, cutting off two bedrooms.
The village had a full time stair maker, so I asked him in for a chat. He took one look and left, he could see no way of getting a staircase into place.
My son and I built the replacement, step by step, with the strings in place, 13 steps and nearly 4ft wide.
My wife and I then decided to use one of the bedrooms for ourselves and the first night I went to bed before my good lady and was disturbed by the sound of footsteps on a creaking staircase, odd I thought, they don't creak! Footsteps across the bedroom floor followed. I turned the bed side light on find the room empty.
The people in the village later informed us that the rooms had been sealed as a 19yr old lad had hung himself in the attics.

Roy.

 

[steve tighe]

Thanks for all the advice...

Been busy with other things but getting back to the stairs now.

Couple of questions:

1 - Newels
I was going to buy 50 x 200 pse (so maybe 46 x 196) and cut down the centre and glue together to make something like 90 x 90 (in ash).

As for gluing my only experience has been with making wooden spearguns from teak and also one from sapele and maple. I reversed the laminates to stop movement.
I was going to do this for the newels but a joiner mate told me to have the grain going the same way (ie if you look from the top and the rings are like this (( rather than () or )(.
I used West System slow cure for the teak spearguns but have Titebond for this staircase.

When they are joined do you cut the mortise through the glue line or through the wood? ie -|| or |i|

2 - easy one but thought I'd check - Wedges - cut along the grain ?

3 - suitable wood and manner to make draw bore piece for newel join ?

Cheers
Ed

Ed

Titebond should be ok for glueing the ash post together,if you were going to use pva then go for the internal stuff,external can leave a dark glueline.
Cascamite or some other urea formald... powdered glue is another option.

Wedges,yeah,with the grain,flip the wedge stuff over every second cut so you're keeping with the grain otherwise you'll end up with a load of crossgrain wedges.

Drawbore pins-it wouldn't be a bad idea to get some 1/2" mild steel rods & if you know an engineering firm then get them to stick 'em on a lathe and put a taper on them,a 12" length with a taper of 1/4" to 1/2" over 8" would be spot on,the beauty of drawbore pins is you get a second chance


Use the pins when you're putting the stairs together dry & fixing them,then when the glue's gone off,knock 'em out & bang home normal 1/2" ramin dowel,if you make the dowel an inch or so shorter then you need & knock it home a 1/2" or so below the surface then your normal crossgrain pellets will sort out what's left.

Generally speaking,the glue'll be stronger then the timber so structurally that isn't something to worry about but for looks...well the strings will be running into the posts so just eye them up & see what looks best,how the grain's running etc.

Ash is ok to glue up face to face,I know what your mate's saying but you're only glueing up 4" faces,it won't be a problem,offer each face up & see what looks best overall,if you can glue them without an obvious visible joint then that's a right result you've had.

Let us know how you get on mate.

 

[EdK]

Thanks Steve - much appreciated !
Got a mate who has just started up a machining shop and is making me a collar and pipe for my woodburning so will ask him to make some rods too. Good tip !

As for the other things will give the wedges a go tomorrow and still waiting for the wood for the balusters and newels etc.

Still trying to decide whether to make a walled in corridor out of the stairs or to have one side open with a traditional hand rail and balusters (ie open to the room below or stud walled off...

Any more thoughts anyone ?

Cheers
Ed

 

[steve tighe]

That's gonna be personal choice Ed,open is nice but that one's up to you mate.

 

[EdK]

Well the flight is all glued together - many thanks for advice etc.

I've knocked up a newel post - planed to 89mm square and mortised the slot for the flight tenon. This all fits now and the top tread fit in too.

I was going to hog out the back of the newel to fit against the trimmer at the stair head but was wondering what precise level to have this at....

The top of the top tread should be finished floor level (FFL) but as I have no flooring I originally guessed at 19mm.

I've been looking at wood flooring and was wondering what the best one to go for was.

I thought maybe carry on with ash flooring for the top landing area and then stop at each room at the door tread (decide on upstairs flooring later).

I'm planning on making the balusters and hand rail from ash too so was wondering if the landing is ash floored will this be ash overload !

I was looking at maple flooring too and cherry - sort of leaning towards the paler end of the scale but no idea what will look good with an ash stairs.

Also I live in a damp marine climate like Cornwall/Devon etc so was thinking a decent engineered flooring for the landing upstairs. I was looking for a 4mm veneer - is this enough ?

What is a good make to go for ? Kahrs / Junkers or any old flooring ?

Any advice on board length / width ?

What is the process of fitting a wood floor ? Does it have an underlay or is it just glued down with a sticky moveable glue ?

Basically if I buy say 15mm engineered wood flooring can I allow 15mm above the current sub floor (19mm ply sheeting) or should I allow a bit more ?

I don't want to be in the situation of having the last top tread a few mil too high or too low !

THanks for any advice - think I am getting there with the stairs

Cheers
Ed

 

[OPJ]

Looks like you're doing very well!

Funny, I've met several joiners in recent years who say they simply couldn't get their head around staircases!

 

[EdK]

Trying to decide if :
A - I need scotias (just placed not glued at moment - hence gaps)
B - Are the scotias too big ?

Was going to stop chamfer the balusters and also the newel.

For the newel I was thinking maybe a lambs tongue stop chamfer and saw in Period Furntiture Details by Lonnie Bird (p62) how to make them.

Not sure on dimensions for the chamfer...Both width and length.

The newel is 89mm square and ash again.

Also the newel top... I was thinking of making a curved template and marking out a curved V shape on each face and then cutting it and finally smoothing with something like a spokeshave.

Is this a good approach ? As mentioned this is my first project in wood so if it's silly let me know !

Wasn't keen on having a ball top so though the curved point might be ok but maybe too gothic ? Was thinking of a slight rounding of the square top and then a lower shadow gap too ?

Any thoughts...

Cheers
Ed

 

[crazey]

Lovely job, Ed.

My immediate impression is the the stairs can do without the scotias. It has a design simplicity that the scotias would detract from and the scotias ornament a house that appears to be distinctly unornamental. I just kept asking myself "What are they for?" and couldn't find an answer.

I weighed my staircase and I think it came out at 130lbs and it is a bit shorter than yours (and pine, not ash) so you will need your Weetabix when putting that up.

Graham

 

[steve tighe]

Tell you what Ed,you've done a blinding job on those stairs,you've cleaned them up a treat mate,they look good.

As for scotia's,well this'll answer crazey's post as well,generally speaking you'll find them on cut-string stairs only,the main reason for this is to cover breakout at the top of the riser line where it meets the front of the tread cut-out (short-grain breakout).

You'd get away with them on your stairs though,that's a job that shouldn't be carpeted & as long as the scotia isn't deeper then the tread's thickness it'll look ok.Those ones you've got in the pic's look spot on.

As for chamfered posts & sticks...well...personnal opinion only...seems a bit of a cop-out to me,if you want simple then leave everything square,it won't look too bad,that's only my opinion though & is generally best ignored !

Newel caps & drops...? If you're going to go for square or variations of squareness (including chamfers) then go the same way with the caps & drops.You can always change them later.

 

[EdK]

Well I've put 3 thin coats of Ronseal Diamond varnish on it and it looks a bit shiny but guess this will wear/mellow with age.

Got a mate making up some pins (1/2" with a 1/4" taper over 8" - good idea thanks !) and was planning on drilling two 12mm holes for drawboring the top newel.

How close to the edge and how close together do you drill the holes ?

I have divided the usable vertical distance into three and placed the holes at a 1/3 but still not sure how close to go to the edge.

Have skipped the scotias as I figure I can always glue them later.

Thanks for all the advise and comments - hard to make something like this as a first project !

 

[EdK]

Read a section on draw boring in Hand tools book by Chris Schwartz - recommended a 1/2" in from edge and then an 1/8" off set with the two holes.

Going to use an ash peg and then cap with ash plugs.

Is it possible to drill these holes by hand ?
Planning on trying... newel is 89mm square - not confident in my drilling skills but don't have a pillar drill.

Thanks
Ed

 

[steve tighe]

Mark the holes out either side Ed & then drill in from each side if you've not got a pillar drill,you've half the chance of drilling on the p!ss that way.

Me,I normally went 25mm to the centre of the hole,depends on how long your tenon is though,too close to the end & it'll break out.