staircase - winder vs quarter landing

[RogerS]

Needing to make the staircase for the cottage. Currently temporary quarter landing stairs are in place and BRegs compliant.

After much fiddling about deciding where the upstairs walls will go and the knock-on effect that has on the staircase which in turn has a knock-on effect on how much intrusion into one of the upstairs bedrooms it will create in order to meet the headroom regs which then brings into play whether or not one of my carefully crafted ceiling joists is in the wrong place.......I remembered I'd contemplated a winder staircase which, IIRC, would win me some headroom but then I saw this site where it says that winder staircases take up more room.

I can't see why. I would have thought that the quarter landing takes you up one riser and a winder takes you up two or even three risers in the same space which must mean that either the topmost flight or the bottom flight is shorter than the quarter landing and so take up less space.

 

[Digit]

Which ever Rog. But the quarter landing is somewhat easier to construct, I'd go for that if possible.

Roy.

 

[steve tighe]

...A winder corner does require more space than a quarter landing in order to comply with Building regulations...


It's only the setting out of the winder box that can be slightly larger then the setting out of the 1/4 landing(note the word "can"this isn't always the case through,it can be the same size depending on the setting out),the overall going of the stairs will be up to 2 goings less.

Generally speaking the 1/4 landing will start 1/2 way in on the post & finish 1/2 way round the next side,it's possible to have all three winders included within the post,you don't lose much.

 

[RogerS]

Thanks, guys. Glad to find my reasoning was Ok.

Can anyone recommend any good books on building staircases?

 

[steve tighe]

Not for setting out,no,not if that's what you're after.


Naturally you can google practical stairbuilding books or better still,have a look through www.abebooks.com .

Keep the website to yourself though 8)

 

[Digit]

I got all the info I needed for setting out from a copy of the building regs, though that was some years ago so whether that's still a valid point I'm not sure.

Roy.

 

[steve tighe]

That won't always work Roy,sometimes you have to set out with the space you're given.

 

[Digit]

Granted Steve, but the BR of the day gave me sufficient info to do that. Mind you, I think staircase design is far from easy.

Roy.

 

[steve tighe]

Good enough Roy,sometimes you had to pull a few strokes to get them in,mind

 

[Digit]

They can be murder getting all the pieces into place without the last piece you put in falling out as I remember, mind you, I was working in a very confined space and had to assemble it in situ. Not funny at all, particularly as the wife asked me if I would like a drink, then supplied me with a very large mug of brandy!
Seemed to go better after that! :lol:

Roy.

 

[RogerS]

Wonder if anyone can check my calculations?

Finished floor to finished floor rise = 2371mm.

11 risers of 215.5 will give me the rise I need and be within the 220mm limit set by BRegs.

A going of 220 is a little on the tight side and a tad over the 42 degrees but let's go with it for now.

Top flight will have 5 treads so this means that the total go of this flight is 1100mm.

Three winders...the actual tread width is 755mm excluding stringers.

Which leaves me with the bottom flight with a total go of 660mm.

Question re winders...the minimum width at the newel post is 50mm. Doesn't this mean that I need a newel post the size of a telegraph pole?

 

[steve tighe]

Generally you'd want 12 risers on that one,ideally you'd want to keep the rise under 200mm.

However,as you've said,lets keep with the setting out so far.A good rule of thumb method is the rise plus 10% plus a bit to keep within the 42 degrees.(where's the degrees button on the puter...?)

A rise of 215.5 plus 21.5 is a going of 237mm,round it up to a 240mm going & you'll be there or thereabouts.

Gonna need a bit more help here Roger,as it stands with ex 1 1/2 strings you're looking at an overstring of 820mm,with the ex 4" post thrown in for the winders then we're looking at working a box around a measurement of approx 850mm.(dims from wall to outside of post)

Stick a plan up of what you've got & we'll sort it out from there.Might mean working out a 4 winder box,might mean putting anything you like in if it's a like for like stairs & since it's a cottage,building regs go out the window if that's the case.

As it stands I don't have enough info to set it out for you mate.The more you put up,the easier it'll be.

 

[Digit]

It's a pig of a job. It makes the building seem relatively easy.
I needed 13 risers, and the more risers you have the greater the difficulty, I found, as adding couple of mill to get an even number then takes you over the top, so then it's back to the drawing board!
Best of luck.

Roy.

 

[RogerS]

.....,with the ex 4" post thrown in for the winders then .....

If I'm following you correctly, are you saying that the post needs to be 4" square?

The reason for wanting to keep the number of treads as low as possible is to minimise the intrusion into one of the upstairs rooms that's needed to meet the headroom rule. That's why I went for high rise.

This picture shows the top of the temporary stairs

This picture is the bottom part of the temporary stairs

and this last picture is where the headroom needs to me made.

This picture was taken before the temp stairs went in.

The yellow line in the first picture shows where (approx) I intend to fix a partition. I want to bring this partition back as far as I can picture left...but this will mean that the stairs also will have to move back as well as the partition wall needs to be in line with the top of the stairs (I think for aesthetic reasons). But if I move the stairs back then I may have to reduce the top flight by one tread and increase the bottom flight accordingly. But if I do that then it moves the headroom point back (again towards picture left) in the last picture which encroaches into the room on the first floor. A high riser and lots of winders seems to be the answer but a 4" newel post isn't going to meet Chief Designers criteria of 'lightness'.

This was one of the original staircases

 

[steve tighe]

No,you can actually build a stairs with winders without a post if you like,we use to call them "shark fin" stairs due to the shape of the strings which takes the place of the post.

What I need is the plan of the stairs including the measurements of where it finishes & where it's likely to start,there's obviously a fixed point here.

It could be start,a finish or as you've said a headroom point.

Though by the looks of things I reckon a lot of building regs rules could be waived.

Give me the dims & I'll set it out for you,no probs,but I need to know what other factors to take into account.

edit:- need to know the dims of the space you're putting the stairs into on plan.

 

[RogerS]

No,you can actually build a stairs with winders without a post if you like,we use to call them "shark fin" stairs due to the shape of the strings which takes the place of the post.

What I need is the plan of the stairs including the measurements of where it finishes & where it's likely to start,there's obviously a fixed point here.

It could be start,a finish or as you've said a headroom point.

Though by the looks of things I reckon a lot of building regs rules could be waived.

Give me the dims & I'll set it out for you,no probs,but I need to know what other factors to take into account.

edit:- need to know the dims of the space you're putting the stairs into on plan.

OK - will do - thanks Steve

 

[steve tighe]

Good enough Roger,put them up here or pm them to us,tight measurements or working measurements & we'll get it sorted out mate.

 

[EdK]

Hi Roger - early on in this post you asked about books.

I'm a total newbie and had to build a staircase recently (actually still going...) so decided to read a bit:

Porter & Tooke vol3 has some good info
Schuttner has a thin book on Basic Stairmaking which is interesting but seems to miss a few bits (if you are a beginner) - it is USA based.

There is a book with a pale cover called Practical Joinery which is good.

And the last one is an old one by George Ellis with a section on setting out winders and so on - old and traditional but I really liked this book (orange cover) - all are available from amazon and I can look them up if you like but no time now...(or local library).

Cheers
Ed

 

[RogerS]

Steve

Here are the dimensions (tight). The rise ffl to ffl is 2371. All dims are in mm. Please let me know if I've not given enough info or it's not clear. Thanks mate.

Roger

 

[steve tighe]

This any good Roger,or does it need any fine tuning ?

The dims for the winders are only approximate,they're as close as I can get with a 1:10 squiggle,needs setting out full size on an mdf board or something similar.