Stair/bannister connection question

[Darren D]

sorry more joinery...
Our new house has a seventies staircase. Apparently it is hardwood (anyone recognise the wood?) and I'd rather work with it than replace if possible.

I've got two plans, but they both resolve around the same first problem. Instead of connecting the bannister rail to the face of the vertical posts as they are now, I'm sure it will look better if the rail was shorter and fitted between the posts rather than on them. If this was being built from scratch, I guess mortise and tenon joints would be used but for me the posts are in place and can't be moved. What sort of fastening can I use the connect the rail to the inner face of the posts?

Assuming this can be done, I then have some options. I can put the two rails back as the are (but inside instead of on the posts) or I can put just the top rail on - probably ripped to half it's height - and insert balusters underneath (in stainless steel so I don't have to match the wood). Has anyone got any thoughts or warnings on this?

Thanks as always
Darren

 

[jasonB]

The treads look like sapele but the rails may just be stained & varnished, can't really see the grain. landing looks like something else.

Burbridge do metal brackets that fit under normal handrail you may just get away with them if the rails are wide enough.

Can't see any problems, did something similar for my brother about 12 yrs ago. Just make sure your handrail is the correct height 840-1000 above nosings and that you keep the space between the stainless rods below 100mm.

Jason

 

[9fingers]

Maybe you could use M&T at one end and these recessed into the end of the rails/ http://www.woodfit.com/product_info.php ... hole+Plate

Whilst modifications to existing work need not involve BCO inspection, I think the regs require that no gaps in the rails should be big enough to pass a 100 mm sphere through.

Good Luck

Bob

 

[Pecker]

Sapele was commonly used during the 70's for stair treads and it ceratinly looks like it.

The regulations are inded that no gap should be wider then 100mm. NOTE that is NOT 4" but 100mm (sorry, not being pendantic it is very specific on that and they will fail if 4").

Jason is also correct about the handrail height, from from the pitch of the stairs ie, vertical from the nosing.

Just as a point of note here. About 3 or 4 years back there was a case where a "carpenter" carried out some work to a staircase in a house. ( Basingstoke I think). About 12 months after the work was done, the house was sold. A few months later,a teenager fell down the stairs and was seriously injured. There stairs no longer met with regulations.

The previous owners were successfully prosectued for failing to ensure that current regulations were met when having the work carried out.

With the advent of the new Sellers Info Pack supposedly due out next year, we can expect to surveyors picking up more on issues such as these:-(

Its actually one of the reasons I dont carry out loft converstions anymore - the amount of regs relating to them.

Sorry, not trying to be miserable I promise

Mark

 

[Colin C]

I would agree with jason and say that all of the wood I can see is sapelle

 

[dickm]

Looks horribly like the staircase in our house, built 1969. But at least the rails are morticed into the posts on our's.
I've been wondering about trying to modify it to comply with current building regs (and for my own safety - I'm not getting any younger!), but I can't see an easy answer other than complete replacement.
Anyone done anything like this?

 

[Darren D]

The treads look like sapele but the rails may just be stained & varnished, can't really see the grain. landing looks like something else.

Fair point, I guess it would be easier to identify wood if you could see it! I'll do some sanding and take some more pictures in better light today.

Burbridge do metal brackets that fit under normal handrail you may just get away with them if the rails are wide enough.

Thanks. My local B+Q stock them so I went down to take a look. They will definitely do the job. B+Q only had complete spindles (chrome plated or gold coloured) which were are £5.60 each including the brackets. I need 64 to be safely within the 100mm gap so it isn't cheap but will be straight forward.

Maybe you could use M&T at one end and these recessed into the end of the rails/ http://www.woodfit.com/product_info.php ... hole+Plate

Interesting I don't fancy my chances of cutting accurate mortices in the (unmovable) posts. Also I have 10 to do (3 storey house with lots of turns in the staircase) so on the positive side, I might get a lot better at it by the end but on the other hand there is a lot of scope to get it wrong and I have no spares. However, I do like the idea of recessing some sort of fixing into both ends of the rails and then sliding them onto the corresponding fixing points on the posts. An idea what would do the job?

Darren

 

[jasonB]

I would forget off the shelf spindles.

Find you local stainless stockholder and buy some lengths of grade 303 stainless steel rod, should be under £7 for a 3m length. Clean them up with some fine emery cloth for a brushed look

Make a simple jig to drill the string and handrail vertically and slip the rods in as you assemble the handrail.

Jason

 

[RogerS]

With the advent of the new Sellers Info Pack supposedly due out next year,

Been dropped/postponed IIRC

 

[Pecker]

Roger,

unfortunetly Home Information Packs (to be correct) are still *apparently* on the agenda. At this moment the goverment has agreed to delay their implimentation, for a whole host of reasons including a rebellion by 130 MPs, the lack of trained inspectors and a total apathy by estate agents including the on-line site Rightmove.

There is at best confusion. Certain elements of it will still go ahead including the energy rating aspect (you'll have to get your home, energy rated before, being able to sell it!)

Quote " Yvette Cooper, the Housing Minister, said that dry run tests on 14,000 home information packs with searches would be required before the home condition report could become mandatory.

Ms Cooper said that the government was looking for a progressive voluntary take-up of the reports. However, she added that the reports would still become mandatory if the industry failed to make a success of them. "

Quote:- "The Association of Home Information Pack Providers (AHIPP) intends to introduce Hips, including a home condition report, from the end of this year. Mike Ockenden, Director General of AHIPP said:

The fact that Hips will still happen on June 1st is good news for the consumer. A recent survey by an AHIPP member Your Move found that 85 per cent of consumers would welcome the Home Condition Report (HCR) as part of the pack - the Government’s decision to allow the HCR to be voluntary at the start is wholly unnecessary.It is our firm belief that there will be consumer demand for the HCR and it will become mandatory.
"

My girlfriend is an Independant Mortgage Advisor, and says basically the whole industry is getting totally conflicting messages from the government. (Nothing new there then! :lol: )


Regards
mark

 

[9fingers]

Maybe you could use M&T at one end and these recessed into the end of the rails/ http://www.woodfit.com/product_info.php ... hole+Plate
Interesting I don't fancy my chances of cutting accurate mortices in the (unmovable) posts. Also I have 10 to do (3 storey house with lots of turns in the staircase) so on the positive side, I might get a lot better at it by the end but on the other hand there is a lot of scope to get it wrong and I have no spares. However, I do like the idea of recessing some sort of fixing into both ends of the rails and then sliding them onto the corresponding fixing points on the posts. An idea what would do the job?

The mortices could be plunge routed out using a jig to the full size of the rails. Do this deeper than needed and then insert the rails deeper initially to give enough room to use the keyhole plates I gave the link for in my earlier post.
A concealed screw from below the rail could lock the keyhole plate end.

regards

Bob

 

[stairman]

I would forget off the shelf spindles.

Find you local stainless stockholder and buy some lengths of grade 303 stainless steel rod, should be under £7 for a 3m length. Clean them up with some fine emery cloth for a brushed look
Make a and slip the rods in as you assemble the handrail.
Jason

I would agree with JasonB I have used 3/4 crome hanging rail

The simple jig to drill the string and handrail vertically could be made by taking a piece of wood the thickness of the string drilling the relevant size of hole through it hold it agenst the string making shoure the hole is plum mark the angle of the string and cut off and fix two bits of wood ether side then you can clamp the jig to the string making shure it is plum and drill through
The jig could be cut to a leanth as a stop to get the correct depth
You may need to drill horsintal holes through to stop the drill bit jamming

 

[Darren D]

thanks all. I've sanded some more and it all appears to be sapele except for the landing which is something entirely different. Is there any way of making sapele erm... less red? I guess I'll get used to it.
I'm inspired by the diy spindle route, I think it will look better as well as being a lot cheaper. The jig will be fun. Luckily I can start with a horizontal stretch on the landing before getting into the angle cuts.
I've got a clear idea how I want to attach the handrail - some sort of upside down U shape fixing that slots over a bolt or somesuch in the post. But I'm not sure if the fixing exists!

The mortices could be plunge routed out using a jig to the full size of the rails. Do this deeper than needed and then insert the rails deeper initially to give enough room to use the keyhole plates I gave the link for in my earlier post.

I think I get your idea Bob but it involves routing 5 angled mortices if I understand you correctly and there is just too much scope for getting it wrong. I'm hoping for something simpler.

Darren

 

[jasonB]

some sort of upside down U shape fixing that slots over a bolt or somesuch in the post. But I'm not sure if the fixing exists!

Something like this, may need shortening a bit, as its tapered it will pull the joint tighter as more pressure is applied.

Jason

 

[stairman]

I think I get your idea Bob but it involves routing 5 angled mortices if I understand you correctly and there is just too much scope for getting it wrong. I'm hoping for something simpler.Darren

You would not be routing 5 angled mortices they would be square any angle would have to be chiseled out below the surface and unseen after fitting.

when using jigs the only scope for getting it wrong would be making the jig badly (test it on scrap wood first to make shoer it works) positing it badly or not clamping it securely

if you mortice out your newel posts cut the higher post deeper so if the glue falls (should not happen with todays glues) it don't fall out.

 

[stairman]

hope this explains better

 

[Darren D]

thank you, yes that does help.

The rails are obviously longer than the gap so I push the top into the additional space area and then slide it back down into the bottom mortice. But will that work? The posts are pretty solid and the wood doesn't bend much. Also at the same time, I need to fit all the spindles into the holes I've made. I do take your point that with careful use of jigs it should be possible to get everything cut precisely but it still seems like a construction nightmare.

I'm much more taken with the fixings Jason has suggested. As long as they are strong enough, it seems a much easier job to slide the rail down vertically into place, fitting the spindles at the same time. I'm going to order a few and have a play.

Darren

 

[stairman]

You need to work the way most comfortable to you or it wont be right

But if there is ample depth in the handrail you could drill 2" up and 3/4" into the string which should give enough room to slide the rails in with some PU glue to hold them

if the bottom mortice is 30mm and the top mortice 65mm the theory is that it will work