Sole flat enough?

[Racers]

Hi,

I use Oakey 60 grit to start with then 120 grit both bought in 5 meter roles from Wikes. I don't think you need a mirror finish but if you want it shiny use some 400, I just put a peice on top of the 120. The 60 grit cuts fast so if its nearly flat it shouldn't take much time, vacuum the paper when the swarf builds up and turn the plane round often to avoid uneven metal removal, a sideways rub or two on the paper will reveal high spots.

Pete

 

[hunggaur]

Hi Pete many thanks for the information i will start on my planes next week,

kind regards

jon

 

[woodbrains]

Hello.

I would just like to correct a few misconceptions on the plane fettling discussion.

Clamping the abrasive down to a piece of float glass to the bench WILL cause the glass to conform to the uneven bench top. In other words it makes using the glass pointless, as the only reson for using it is for its flatness.

A smoothing plane with corrugated sole should not be too arduous to flatten. (the photo you show of your efforts so far are not flat enough) If you are finding it too much like hard work, then I would suggest you are not using suitable abrasive. The Oakey rolls (aluminium oxide) you have been advised are not really suitable for iron. It dulls too quickly. Get some silicon carbide on cloth backing. Cuts fast, holds its edge longer. Much more fun.

If you have a surface planer with a flat cast table or saw bench etc., then clamp your abrasive to that. If not and you intend to do a few planes, make a platform by glueing up a few layers of birch ply or mdf to make a thick lump. Alternate the faces of each layer, front to back to press out any warps the board might have had. put your plate glass and abrasive on that.

Chattering plane irons is mostly due to poorly fitting cap irons and the bed of the frog not being a good, flat seat for the iron (blade) Fettle these areas first, before you go splashing out on expensive new irons. The back of your iron needs to be flat, too, and polished like a mirror at least in the area right behind the cutting edge..

Sharpness and edge retention are NOT the same thing. High carbon steel can arguably be sharpened to a better edge than fancy A2 cryo HSS etc. The A2 will hold its edge for longer but may not be as sharp to begin with. Carbon steel hones much quicker and many professionals prefer the sharper edge and easier honing of the carbon steel over the alternatives. If you are using oilstones, then you are not likely to sharpen A2 satisfactorily as it takes too darn long and virtually impossible freehand. If you havn't got them already buy some good Japanese waterstones to at least 6000 grit rather than buy a chinese replacement iron. Less than 6000 and your irons will not be truly sharp, nor will they take as fine a shaving as you will want, when your lovely flattened sole is ready.

Mike.

 

[Jacob]

....
If you have a surface planer with a flat cast table or saw bench etc., then clamp your abrasive to that.

If you use wet and dry it'll stick to the bed with just white spirit to wet it and give a bit of suction to the paper. No clamps or glue needed and easy to clean off

Chattering plane irons is mostly due to poorly fitting cap irons and the bed of the frog not being a good, flat seat for the iron (blade) Fettle these areas first, before you go splashing out on expensive new irons. The back of your iron needs to be flat, too, and polished like a mirror at least in the area right behind the cutting edge..

Chattering usually means you are doing something wrong - too much set, too loose lever cap, workpiece not solidly held. Not an excuse for the credit card experience!

... If you are using oilstones, then you are not likely to sharpen A2 satisfactorily as it takes too darn long and virtually impossible freehand. ..

Not in my experience (Veritas LA jack and smoother). I expected A2 to be difficult but in fact it sharpens really well freehand on a fine oil stone. Complete surprise after everything I'd read. Just one stone is all you need, no grinding needed if you do the convex bevel thing.

PS it's a stone I bought at a car boot for £2 years ago. At current rate of wear it will see me out. Put that credit card away!

PPS seating on the frog is not too important as long as the blade is firmly nipped between frog and cap iron + lever cap, as close as poss to the cutting edge. The lever cap does need to be tight enough to press the blade down flat on the frog, but it's the edge grip which counts.

 

[Paul Chapman]

Chattering usually means you are doing something wrong

Like using a badly made plane where nothing fits together properly :lol:

Cheers :wink:

Paul

 

[Jacob]

Chattering usually means you are doing something wrong

Like using a badly made plane where nothing fits together properly :lol:

Cheers :wink:

Paul

Not something I've experienced. :lol:
You do seem to have plane problems Paul! Where do you find all these dud planes?

 

[woodbrains]

Woodbrains Wrote

Hello.

I don't want to labour the point, or sound too pedantic but:

If you use wet and dry it'll stick to the bed with just white spirit to wet it and give a bit of suction to the paper. No clamps or glue needed and easy to clean off

Even water will stick wet and dry to a planer bed, but neither this nor white spirit will stick the heavy, cloth backed abrasives needed for the initial flattening when lots of metal needs to be removed. If you have something posh like a Lie Nielsen, then just a light polish with fine wet and dry is all you'll need, but some Stanley and Record models can have hollows as much as 5 thou. this would be too tedious to do with anything finer than 80-100 grit, for the first flattening. And of course flatteming on glass on an mdf platen will need clamps.

Chattering usually means you are doing something wrong - too much set, too loose lever cap, workpiece not solidly held. Not an excuse for the credit card experience!

All true, but the flatness of the bed of the frog is critical. The lever cap cannot firmly press the blade assembly to a frog with a hump in it--as they often have--or lumps of enamel and burrs around the edges of the casting...

I expected A2 to be difficult but in fact it sharpens really well freehand on a fine oil stone. Complete surprise after everything I'd read. Just one stone is all you need, no grinding needed if you do the convex bevel thing.

A plane iron really should have a CONCAVE bevel (must be done by grinding) or a dead flat bevel (achieved with coarse stones or abrasives on a flat surface again) with the secondary bevel honed with a very fine stone. Only oilstones such as Surgical Black Arkansas or Translucent Arkansas are fine enough to hone a really sharp edge and trust me, these take too long for A2. If you only have one stone and can remove metal with it, then it is not either of these and not fine enough. Before anyone mentions it, shaving hair from the back of your forearm is not a good indication of sharpness. Blades which are only moderately sharp will do this, too, but suck wind when used on wood.

PPS seating on the frog is not too important as long as the blade is firmly nipped between frog and cap iron + lever cap, as close as poss to the cutting edge. The lever cap does need to be tight enough to press the blade down flat on the frog, but it's the edge grip which counts.

The iron MUST contact with as much of a flat area of the frog as possible. A good contact with only the edge is not good enough. The standard cap irons are servicable but IMO too thin to clamp the assembly to the frog with enough pressure. However, even a relatively thin standard blade will perform in another league if the frog bed is fettled. Couple this with a Clifton two piece cap iron and you will never need a thicker blade, unless, of course the tool bug has truly bitten.

 

[Jacob]

...
Even water will stick wet and dry to a planer bed, but neither this nor white spirit will stick the heavy, cloth backed abrasives needed for the initial flattening when lots of metal needs to be removed. ... but some Stanley and Record models can have hollows as much as 5 thou. this would be too tedious to do with anything finer than 80-100 grit, ....

Yes you are right - so use paper backed abrasives. They stick well with just suction when wet and are cheaper

A plane iron really should have a CONCAVE bevel (must be done by grinding) or a dead flat bevel (achieved with coarse stones or abrasives on a flat surface again) with the secondary bevel honed with a very fine stone.

CONVEX is perfectly OK as long as you don't round over the edge and do keep the bevel to the desired angle at the edge. I know this amounts to blasphemy in sharpening circles but is true nevertheless.

Only oilstones such as Surgical Black Arkansas or Translucent Arkansas are fine enough to hone a really sharp edge and trust me, these take too long for A2. If you only have one stone and can remove metal with it, then it is not either of these and not fine enough. Before anyone mentions it, shaving hair from the back of your forearm is not a good indication of sharpness. Blades which are only moderately sharp will do this, too, but suck wind when used on wood.

Ordinary not very special oilstones work well for me and don't take too long - in fact is very quick as there is no fiddling about setting up.
Useful tip - remove swarf with a rare earth magnet - saves on oil and messy cloths. You still need the cloth but it reduces the mess.
It's always a compromise between how long the sharpening process takes, how long the edge will last, getting the (wood) work done. There is a subtle point beyond which any higher degree of sharpness is a waste of time

PPS seating on the frog is not too important as long as the blade is firmly nipped between frog and cap iron + lever cap, as close as poss to the cutting edge. The lever cap does need to be tight enough to press the blade down flat on the frog, but it's the edge grip which counts.

The iron MUST contact with as much of a flat area of the frog as possible. A good contact with only the edge is not good enough.

As I say "The lever cap does need to be tight enough to press the blade down flat on the frog", but it's the edge grip which counts - the whole idea of the Bailey design is to nip a thin blade tight at the edge, with pressure transferred from the lever cam via the lever cap and the cap iron.
Can't say I see any point in the two piece cap iron, though I've never tried one.

 

[Jacob]

PS another detail - you don't really need to go beyond 60 to 80 grit when flattening a sole. It will be a bit snatchy at first but, with use, the sharpness will go very quickly and friction will be low.
Explanation: a freshly ground surface will effectively have sharp ridges and furrows. To reduce friction you don't need to get to the bottom of the furrows, you just need to smooth the tops of the ridges by a tiny amount.
Might even be an advantage (along with being quicker to achieve) in that the furrows may hold candle wax and keep the bottom slippery for longer.

 

[Paul Chapman]

Can't say I see any point in the two piece cap iron, though I've never tried one.

Well, there you go :wink:

Cheers :wink:

Paul

 

[bugbear]

PS it's a stone I bought at a car boot for £2 years ago. At current rate of wear it will see me out.

Is it a natural stone (e.g. an old slate or Charnley forest) or the more recent Norton India?

http://www.rutlands.co.uk/hand-tools/sh ... nch-stones

Since you say it's wearing slowly, I'd guess the latter.

BugBear

 

[Jacob]

My current favourite most used is my next to finest which is a man made two sided stone.
I also have a go on a very fine stone which looks natural to me i.e.same both sides. I save this for small chisels or extra sharp experiments with wider edges.

 

[woodbrains]

Oh dear, it looks like I'm going to have to labour the point.

Fine India oilstones are not fine enough for sharpening a really good edge. No they're not. Absolutely not. They are not even really fine stones, they are just the finest of the India stones that is a trade name of a range of stones made by Norton. it's like saying that strong lager is the strongest drink you can buy. You cannot deny that a fine single malt is stronger and more desirable. And it is the equivalent to fine single malt that we can achieve with our tools if we know how.

Let me put it into context. Fine India stones are actually coarser than P400 wet and dry. Surprised? The particle size of those stones is 42 microns about the same as P360 wet and dry. P1000 abrasive will give a much better edge to tools and even that is still not fine enough (20 micron) . I use a 1200 waterstone as a medium stone and that is not fine enough (14 microns) Look at your tool catalogues and they advise this is only for forming the secondary bevel. It needs to be finished with something finer. I use a 6000 Waterstone (about 2 microns) this is the minimum I would consider for the final hone. 8000 or 10000 might be seen as picky, but I'd not knock anyone for being picky. The funny thing is, honing with waterstones is FAST. It gets you wood working quickly with an edge that, in a well tuned plane, makes the wood glow. I was planing some maple today and I kid ye not, at a raking angle I could see my workshop reflected in it, straight from the plane. Of course if the sole of my planes were as rough as a bears backside, because I stopped flattening them with 100 grit sandpaper, I would never have known what an advantage of havind a truly sharp blade was like. So I spend another few minutes polishing the soles with finer paper, after I have flattened them, because it only needs doing once and is worth it.

I also did some planing with my 1910 patent Bailey No 8 today. It amused me no end to find that the blade seat of the frog is one continuous flat casting (no relief hollows here) I wondered if Leonard Bailey really did intend the blade seat to be only at the edge, when it was actually bedded on a huge flat area. Or perhaps that was some misinformed fiction someone has come up with. In any case, Stanley soon came up with the Bedrock pattern plane, specifically to iron out the problems of poor blade to frog and frog to plane seating. The same pattern copied by Lie Nielsen and Clifton today. The Clifton 2 piece cap iron is not new either. Record introduced those in the 1950's and they really do clamp the whole blade assembly firmly to the frog (providing it is FLAT) ironing out any chatter. Two pieces because the steel is 3 times thicker than those awful bits of bent tin usualy passing as cap irons. Effectively making the iron four times thicker, without having to splash out on expensive new blades! Unless of course you want to!

Incidentally, I am a professional woodworker, and I don't have time to fanny about with things that don't work or take too long. I ditched my oilstones because they don't sharpen quite as fine (Hard Arkansas is about 9 microns) and take longer to do it. Japanese waterstones are extremely quick.

Mike.

 

[Jacob]

Oh dear, it looks like I'm going to have to labour the point.

Oh no! :lol: :lol:
Am away for the weekend so can't reply. Just one thing:

..... Of course if the sole of my planes were as rough as a bears backside, because I stopped flattening them with 100 grit sandpaper, ....

Nonsense. See explanation in earlier post. Yes there will be friction at first but it soon goes with use (and a bit of candle wax). Try it, you will see what I mean. You really don't need a shiny polished sole to reduce friction, as long as the sharpness has been taken off ridges, so to speak. Like a corrugated sole but on a smaller scale

Incidentally, I am a professional woodworker, and I don't have time to fanny about with things that don't work or take too long. ...

Me too. That's why I've ditched all attempts at crazy sharpening schemes in favour of what worked so well for earlier generations, in the good old days when sharpening was not a problem. It's the hang up on avoiding rounded bevels which seems to have caused most of the problems. (Briefly; yes rounding over is bad, but rounding under is good, i.e. having an edge at say 30º but with the bevel rounded off instead of primary, secondary etc. because it makes sharpening freehand really easy.)

 

[woodbloke]

Can't say I see any point in the two piece cap iron, though I've never tried one.

Well, there you go :wink:

Cheers :wink:

Paul

For once, I agree with Jacob :lol: :lol: and I've used the things on plenty of occaisions - Rob

 

[Alf]

I also did some planing with my 1910 patent Bailey No 8 today. It amused me no end to find that the blade seat of the frog is one continuous flat casting (no relief hollows here) I wondered if Leonard Bailey really did intend the blade seat to be only at the edge, when it was actually bedded on a huge flat area. Or perhaps that was some misinformed fiction someone has come up with.

Dunno about Leonard, but iirc Rob Lee has voiced amusement that we get all excited about the machining over the whole surface of the blade bedding area when actually it's machined so the iron does indeed bear on it at the mouth rather than all over. At least I hope I'm not putting words in his mouth - but damned if I could find the comment when I looked for it.

Anyway, welcome to the forum, Mike. If you like to labour a point it seems you and Jacob are made for each other - enjoy. :wink:

Cheers, Alf

 

[Vann]

For once, I agree with Jacob...

That alone is just cause to have you banned from the forum :lol:

The two-piece cap-irons are great. :!: But I noticed that Matthew forgot to put his finger on the lower piece when re-assembling his plane, in the "wood from hell" U-tube video (bleedin' amateur). . :lol:

Cheers, Vann

 

[bugbear]

For once, I agree with Jacob...

That alone is just cause to have you banned from the forum :lol:

Even a stopped clock is right twice a day!

BugBear

 

[woodbloke]

For once, I agree with Jacob...

That alone is just cause to have you banned from the forum :lol:

The two-piece cap-irons are great. :!: But I noticed that Matthew forgot to put his finger on the lower piece when re-assembling his plane, in the "wood from hell" U-tube video (bleedin' amateur). . :lol:

Cheers, Vann

:lol: :lol: ...exactamundo, just one of the reasons why they're NFU - Rob

 

[Paul Chapman]

I think I'll have an "I love Clifton two-piece cap irons" T-shirt printed and wear it to the next Wilton mini-bash 8) 8) :lol:

Cheers :wink:

Paul