Solar Power for the Workshop??

[Tusses]

it depends if you are in it to save money - or 'pretend' to the green

yes - there are lots of ways to get free heat and save money - but they are not pretty ! or you can buy pretty stuff - but it aint cheap ! and the manufactured stuff isnt carbon neutral or cost effective.

BTY - burning wood / chips and dust is carbon neutral ! (and free)

well - I paid £50 for a bit of stainless 4" tube I use as a stove pipe (chimbly)
the stove is a calor bottle !

gets too hot if you keep it stocked up

 

[Big Fat Pig]

I think that we are missing a trick here.All this talk about solar panels which gather energy from the available LIGHT.
I`m thinking that we could do better, especially here in the UK, by developing DARK panels, as we seem to have oodles of the stuff just lying about, going to waste.
:lol:



Piggy

 

[Digit]

BTY - burning wood / chips and dust is carbon neutral !

Hang on whilst I saddle up my hobby horse.
Strictly speaking the burning of wood, coal, gas, heavy oil or petrol is carbon neutral as the CO2 in them originally had an atmospheric source!

Roy.

 

[TheTiddles]

Batteries capable of being discharged to anything near a useful amount for this application will set you back around £10,000, then there's the power management system, get this wrong and you can toast your batteries in a week, call that another £2,000. Solar panels, maybe £20,000

If you really want to do this, I can put you in touch with all the right people.

Now on the heating side, there's real potential, passive solar heat generation is extremely efficient, very cheap and often used, they are called windows! Stick some in the roof and add a self-opening vent and you're done, burn offcuts in winter for the extra, or bring cattle indoors, they are about 250W, a cat is about 9W, Lord Nibbo probably gets 25W of his huge pooches.

As has been previously said, oil and gas are carbon neutral, however when they were laid down there was almost no life above water due to the composition of the air, so if you want to return to that... In the modern vernacular, wood is carbon neutral, but the ships bringing it from Indonesia and America aren't!

Further, don't start me on the Prius either!

Aidan

 

[Rich]

Tusses, could you explain your calor gas bottle stove please, I have 2 empty ones out the back and they are a pig to get rid of, they are both 15Kg.
Rich.

 

[Tusses]

BTY - burning wood / chips and dust is carbon neutral !

Hang on whilst I saddle up my hobby horse.
Strictly speaking the burning of wood, coal, gas, heavy oil or petrol is carbon neutral as the CO2 in them originally had an atmospheric source!

Roy.

thats my argument against the greenies ! LOL

wood tho - can by cabon nutral by generation - in other word, you can re-grow the wood you burn , whereas coal/oil takes a bit longer to make !

in the grand scheme of things tho - the planet will sort it self out long after we have messed it up and deceased !

 

[Tusses]

Tusses, could you explain your calor gas bottle stove please, I have 2 empty ones out the back and they are a pig to get rid of, they are both 15Kg.
Rich.

I'll see if I can find a pic - if not I'll take one tomorrow

 

[Digit]

You should be able to return gas bottles to who ever is the agent for the brand name on the bottle Rich.

Roy.

 

[Rich]

Yes mate, I discussed this matter about 3 months ago, the agent I bought them from is no longer trading and the nearest drop off is 15 miles away, as I said, it's a pig.

 

[Tusses]

ok - pic below ...

1st ... make sure its empty ! connect something to it and burn it till it runs out of gas.

then - use a hacksaw blade and cut the brass fitting at the top ( brass - no sparks ! ) then fill with water !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

ok

number of options now - angle grinder / drill pilot and jig saw (prefered) ...

cut a hole in the top for the chimney (flue)

then cut the hinge side of the door and weld / bolt the hinges in place
then cut the rest of the door out

cut 3 sides of a 2" square in the base and hammer so it 'opens' up about 1/2 an inch.

I made a grate for the bottom out of 6mm steel bar - but that is optional when you get used to it.

I'ts pretty straight forward - fill with wood, light , get warm !

practice makes perfect

you need to burn with the door closed most of the time - the stove and pipe act like a very hot radiator.

I got the chimney pipe from ebay - 4" stainless tube. (dont buy stove / flue pipe - its too expensive)

 

[tnimble]

A 40Wp panel would produce about 30 Amps average during normal conditions during daylight time. Charging 3x110Ah bateries takes 3*110/30 = 11 hours

er I think you may be out by a factor of ten, a 40 watt panel at 12 volts will produce 3.3 amps at full output. I think your 11 hours should read 110 hours, a total non starter for daily use or even weekly for that level of usage.

Erhm yes it seems. probably keyed in 400 instead of 40.

 

[tnimble]

as a rule of thimb

your solar panel (if its a good one) will produce about half its rated output - on a GOOD day ! in th uk.

To charge a battery will take 1.5 times the amount of power you took out.

so - if you took 1kwh throughout the day, it would take 75 hrs of good sunlight to recharge your batteries.

Solar electric power DOESN'T work ! it will never pay for itself.

solar heating is a bit better tho

Rich

That is simply not true (Caveat lector there is a down side to using solar power for anything). In our northernish climate the photovoltaic cells certainly do not produce the near 100% output but its (of its a good one as you state) certainly does not only produced 50% on a good day. That would be about what the 1st generation of solar panels would do on an 1/4 overcast day.Modern multilayer cells produce about 70 to 90% effecency (compared to the absolute maximum output, and aginast the actual power present in the light) during average and clear sunny weather. The effecyency can be greatly increased near to 100% under all conditions with optics. Add a sun tracking system to extend the number of effective production hours per day. However such panels even without the tracking and stuff would be far beyond most peoples budget.

Also the power loss involved in the batery recharging process is not 1.5 times. Again how efficient it is depends of the battery management system and type of battery. Again how much do you want to pay, will it be very cheap lead plate batteries or for instance ceramic implosion batteries. Which again are way out of any persons budget.

The best and only viable means of using solar power for electricity is a collective system spread over at least a neighbourhood coupled to the mains supply involving no local storage. If the multi layered thin film cels are used in combination with optics to bundle a beam of light onto the very smal cell not each and every roof has to be filled with panels and greatly reduces initial cost. However people/politicians tend to favour towards spending 1000 times 10.000 pound instead of 10 times 100.000 pound.


Now for the caveat lector. The solar energy used for generating electricity or to heat our houses does add up to the global warming. All the power generated (electric or heat) inclusing the losses in the system and the losses in the panel/collector is 0% reflected back into space. Solar power is not an excuse to use all the power you ever wanted. The amount of energy that we can use without environmental effect is limited independed of energy source.

 

[Jenx]

in the grand scheme of things tho - the planet will sort it self out long after we have messed it up and deceased !

Most sensible statement in a long while. =D>

The whole 'global warming / Greenhouse gases' is an utter crock of horse manure.
The globe has continually heated up and cooled down in cycles since Gods Dog was a puppy. And it'll continue to do so.

"Global Warming will melt the polar ice caps and we'll all be flooded"
Total and utter bunkum.

Put ice cubes in a glass of water and let them melt.. what happens to the water level ? it goes DOWN !
Ice expands 4x its own volume of water... there's no LAND under it in the arctic ( there is in the Antarctic ).. its a huge floating mass in the sea... melt some of it and the sea level will categorically go DOWN, guaranteed.

All the Eco-Gonks are totally sucked into this whole 'greenie' idea, which is nowt more than a fashion. In certain quarters it almost becomes a competiton.
Not that long back, on GMTV one morning, Mr & Mrs Treehugger were being extolled as fine examples of modern society, because they fitted an entire week's household refuse into ( I kid you not.. ) a Yoghurt Pot.
What a pile of complete BS.

Don't people realise this whole nonsense is pushed down our throats to allow succesive governments to keep sneaking more and more financial burdens onto the populace ?

Fact : 90% of the worlds so-called Greenhouse Gases are caused by volcanic emissions and rotting vegitation.
Not one single human hand making any contribution there.
Of the remaining 10%... many of the countries contributing to this dont, and never will, give a monkeys.
But we ( and a few others ) seem to think that we have to make up the shortfall... and even if we do, it ain't gonna amount to bupkiss.
We're being conned.
Take some time to 'really look into it' - there are many, many very well educated men who will completely substantiate this.
Even the 'lines' of the subjects of prominent discussion are totally blurred now ... the other day I was listening to radio 4, - a phone-in about so-called Traffic Congestion, and some buffoon phoned in with a proposed solution of Electric cars... WHAT ??? How does replacing a convenntional car with another - regardless of how its powered, solve congestion ? if anything, a slower electric car will make it worse.
The guy had totally missed the point.. 'blurred the lines'... brainwashed by the rubbish he's reading and being fed by various aspects of the media. In one way, you cant blame him.. if something is continually rammed down your throat, eventually you start to be convinced its the truth.

"Traffic Congestion" is caused by two deliberate actions.
1. The loss of traditional town high-street shops, like greengrocers, butchers etc.. and their replacement with 'outskirts-of-town' supermarkets etc, where 99% of the people using it have to do so, by car, where in years past, people walked to their local high street for the majority of their goods.

1a. - Similarly.. the 'School Run' -- Close down a lot of smaller schools, build bigger but more widely spaced out school locations.. and lo and behold, the 'School Run' problem manifested.
I'd defy anyone to say they dont notice a massive difference in the traffic volume when the schools are on holiday.
Can that 'congestion' be blamed, as we're constantly told, on huge increases in car-ownership ? Course it cant.


2. The deliberate and contrived placing of ridiculous amounts of traffic lights / crossings and their deliberatly slowed 'phasing'.
Totally and absolutely designed to convince you that we have a congestion problem.. and guess whats gonna be right behind that... yes, the gradual introduction of more and more 'congestion charges' or similar forms of road-tolling by local councils.
You and I are being conned.
Absolutely no doubt about it
"Carbon Footprint" my Aunt Bessie... what a crock.


Rant over.
(till something else starts me off)
I'll have to kick the dog now.
but at least I'm kind to animals... only ever kick him with me slippers on.

 

[tnimble]

Tusses =D>

Add to that the separation between work and living location, overpopulated areas, globalistion and the almost obsessive hunger for food and goods.

 

[Digit]

It's really great to see that some people do have the ability to think for themselves and not be taken in by pressure groups.
The planet has warmed, appears to have halted at the moment, may warm again, may not.
It has been both hotter and colder in the past with both lower and higher levels of CO2 than current.
Whether the 'Greenies' will eventually turn out to be right or wrong the future will tell, but one thing is certain, all their evidence presented over the years, all the computer models, have been found to be wrong. Sea levels haven't risen at the rate predicted, the 'Hockey Stick' has been shown to be wrong, and the temperature has not risen as predicted.
But give 'em credit.
Being wrong hasn't stopped 'em from shouting.
Perhaps they should take up woodwork as a way of filling their time!

Roy.

 

[Effigy]

Thanks for the debate guys, BUT the title of the thread is "Solar Power for the Workshop"

You wanna debate the pros/cons of Global Warming - go start a thread. :roll:

My over-riding thoughts behind my question is 'can I make it work'.

Nothing to do with Saving the Planet, Saving Money, Saving time, Making life easy yadda yadda yadda.

Its a challenge.....and I'm up for it

 

[Tusses]

My over-riding thoughts behind my question is 'can I make it work'.

Nothing to do with Saving the Planet, Saving Money, Saving time, Making life easy yadda yadda yadda.

Its a challenge.....and I'm up for it

in that case - yes you can

wont be cheap tho

I would guess you would need around 10 leisure batteries and enough collectors to charge them if you want to use your tools all day every day!

if you are only in the workshop for a couple of hours every week , then you can get away with a lot fewer.

and if you have any 'electronic' equipment - i.e. speed controls and the like - you will need a pure sign inverter.

I have a 3k pure sign inverter/charger in an unopened box if you are interested - it was going to go on my boat. I have sold the boat, so it is surplus to requirements.

I think they are around £1500 new now, but you can have mine for £1000

 

[Tusses]

ok - just re-read your 1st post.

your inverter will need to be at least 1 1/2 times your biggest tool power - and even then you might have trouble starting the maching without it tripping out. The start up power is a lot more than the running power and inverters dont like that !

I stand by my statement about only getting about half the rated output of a panel in this country - its got nothing to do with the amount of sun - its the angle the sun hits us through the atmosphere.

Also - batteries take around 1.5 times the amount of AH's they have given out. to charge using a good 3 or 4 stage charger. Its nothing to do with the efficiency of the charger - its the way batteries absorb the charge.

oh - and also , you should aim to not let your batteries get below half charge - even on deep cycle batteries !

 

[tnimble]

I stand by my statement about only getting about half the rated output of a panel in this country - its got nothing to do with the amount of sun - its the angle the sun hits us through the atmosphere.

Only when talking about traditional PV cells wjere an array of the PV cells are mounted in a panel cover with glass. Not when using the much better multi layer thin film cells like the III-V which has proven high efficency is is widely used in astronomy and space applications. Each cell has a fresnell lens with a coating to reflect the light back onto the cell. The light comes at any angle (within limits) onto the cell module and hits the active cell euther perpendicular or at an angle. the light that hits at an any is mostly reflected and not converted into electricity. The reflective light hits the coated back of the fresnel lens en reflect back at the active cell to again be converted into energy.

Indeed as you mention at our location on earth the light has to travel trough more atmosphere where more of the light is absorbed than for instance at the equater. However this is a relative low loss most of the energy within the light is lost in the cell and on the protective glass of a tradiational panels.

Also - batteries take around 1.5 times the amount of AH's they have given out. to charge using a good 3 or 4 stage charger. Its nothing to do with the efficiency of the charger - its the way batteries absorb the charge.

Not trough. An lead plate or calcium chamical batery would near such losses with a good charger. (with a simple charger it would require even more Ahs to charge the batery). With better bateries like for instance the implotion bateries (which have no metal plates in a liquid or slod acid or slat) The losses (due to the chemical process of converting the metal of the plates with a traditional batery) are minimal and the charge time (if enough power is avaible to begin with) is only about a half hour to fully charge a 500Ah batery using about 20% more energy which comes to about 1.2 time as more AH is needed. These bateries have been around now for about 15 years. There are also the nwer ceramic bateries which have even less losees and shaorter charge times. How ever these are completly new not yet available for wide spread usage and have to prove their usabilty.

 

[Tusses]

'new' technology might be different .... I was talking about 'off the shelf' stuff that you can readily purchase !

Do you have any prices for these super solar panels and bateries ? they sound interesting if they are affordable and available !

I mean - I dont know where my nearest space shuttle spares supplier is