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Sharpening by hand
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David C
In Memorium
I think there has been excellent advice in this discussion, but the variety of methods is significant.
Sgian is now in a somewhat similar situation to me. About 50 beginners or keen amateurs of hugely varying experience come on my courses every year. Some of the amateurs have been working wood for 40 years.
I have very rarely seen chisels which were working as well as they can, only about three instances come to mind. Very few of the planes are working well / if at all, either.
It is not that difficult to teach people how to do the job really well, but only if they are in the same room/workshop! However hard one tries to describe the processes, in words or DVDs, I constantly hear something like this, "it is so much easier now that we can see, that point was not so easy to understand from the book or DVD.
This makes a good case for more clubs, such as the woodturners seem to have, or perhaps more visits to other peoples workshops. Are furniture makers less gregarious than turners?
Some particularly analytical minds may work these things out for themselves, but there is no totally satisfactorty substitute for being shown, and getting through the initial difficulties, with someone who can do it.
David Charlesworth
Sgian is now in a somewhat similar situation to me. About 50 beginners or keen amateurs of hugely varying experience come on my courses every year. Some of the amateurs have been working wood for 40 years.
I have very rarely seen chisels which were working as well as they can, only about three instances come to mind. Very few of the planes are working well / if at all, either.
It is not that difficult to teach people how to do the job really well, but only if they are in the same room/workshop! However hard one tries to describe the processes, in words or DVDs, I constantly hear something like this, "it is so much easier now that we can see, that point was not so easy to understand from the book or DVD.
This makes a good case for more clubs, such as the woodturners seem to have, or perhaps more visits to other peoples workshops. Are furniture makers less gregarious than turners?
Some particularly analytical minds may work these things out for themselves, but there is no totally satisfactorty substitute for being shown, and getting through the initial difficulties, with someone who can do it.
David Charlesworth
Paul Chapman
Established Member
David C":3qy34ww5 said:
Good advice (as always, Mr C). I use Clifton planes so when I was at the Woodworker Show at Alexandra Palace I had a word with Mike Hudson (always very helpful) on the Clifton stand. His blades are like mirrors so I simply said "Show me how you do that". And he did. And it was so simple. Nothing like seeing it done :wink:
Jacob - I use WD40 for everything so use it on my diamond stones as well, but 3in1 oil is as good. Alf uses lamp oil if I remember correctly. Like everything else, it doesn't seem to matter much - whatever works for you :wink:
Paul
engineer one
Established Member
thanks for entering the fray DC, as usual a sensible set of comments.
i think it is important to consider the following.
1/ when starting out with no help, how do you know what is sharp??
2/ find a system that is reasonably inexpensive to start with and learn the basics, stick with it and you will eventually get the basics right,
but
3/ since you do not know what is really sharp, how do you learn to improve your technique?
4/ try or buy a better quality tool so that you have a benchmark of sharpness.
5/ always buy the best tools you can afford, since from the get go you have more time to learn about the tool properly rather than learn by guess work a skill which can be as off putting as enjoyable.
6/ most of us on the forum do not earn our living with the tools we have, we want to have as much time woodworking not sharpening, so tend only to re-sharpen when it is blunt rather than following the dc method of honing every time we open the box to use it.
as i have said before, i bought the tormek because coming back into the "game" i had a lot of tools to sharpen, and only a limited time in which to do it. now the machine has paid for itself.
for everyday use, i have a couple of systems, and strangely, find they
each have a value for different tools.
Mr Grimsdale was and is lucky to have learnt to sharpen, but since he did other methods have been developed which i think have improved ones ability to provide a sharper tool, now only by trying can you see what works for you.
and to the initial poster, stick with your method, it does get quicker as you learn more, and don't be afraid that you are doing it wrong if every time you re-sharpen, you find a little improvement in the tool you use and the job it does. i can certainly get decent shavings and a good surface from my planes, and chisels. now all i have to do is properly learn to set the wooden ones, and i shall be a happy bunny. must try to make one of the meetings to meet those who have offered to show me the method.
actually i now find sharpening the way i do it quite quick, easy and therapeutic. so i must be doing something right, as well as some woodwork too :lol: :lol:
paul :wink:
i think it is important to consider the following.
1/ when starting out with no help, how do you know what is sharp??
2/ find a system that is reasonably inexpensive to start with and learn the basics, stick with it and you will eventually get the basics right,
but
3/ since you do not know what is really sharp, how do you learn to improve your technique?
4/ try or buy a better quality tool so that you have a benchmark of sharpness.
5/ always buy the best tools you can afford, since from the get go you have more time to learn about the tool properly rather than learn by guess work a skill which can be as off putting as enjoyable.
6/ most of us on the forum do not earn our living with the tools we have, we want to have as much time woodworking not sharpening, so tend only to re-sharpen when it is blunt rather than following the dc method of honing every time we open the box to use it.
as i have said before, i bought the tormek because coming back into the "game" i had a lot of tools to sharpen, and only a limited time in which to do it. now the machine has paid for itself.
for everyday use, i have a couple of systems, and strangely, find they
each have a value for different tools.
Mr Grimsdale was and is lucky to have learnt to sharpen, but since he did other methods have been developed which i think have improved ones ability to provide a sharper tool, now only by trying can you see what works for you.
and to the initial poster, stick with your method, it does get quicker as you learn more, and don't be afraid that you are doing it wrong if every time you re-sharpen, you find a little improvement in the tool you use and the job it does. i can certainly get decent shavings and a good surface from my planes, and chisels. now all i have to do is properly learn to set the wooden ones, and i shall be a happy bunny. must try to make one of the meetings to meet those who have offered to show me the method.
actually i now find sharpening the way i do it quite quick, easy and therapeutic. so i must be doing something right, as well as some woodwork too :lol: :lol:
paul :wink:
Lord Nibbo
Established Member
Some forty five years ago I went for my very first woodwork lesson at school. For four weeks we never touched a piece of wood, week one began by being shown and practicing how to sharpen chisels to correct angles with nothing more than an oil stone and a can of what I would now assume to be engine oil. Week two we moved on to plane blades with more emphisis on cutting angles. Week three we moved to sharpening and setting saw blades [something I strill detest doing 
] Week four was drill bits & Augers by hand with no jigs, of which some in the class found BORING (Pun intended) but I found very interesting in the need for varying angles needed for drilling metal v wood and over the years have probably saved hundreds of pounds by salvageing old bits from the bin.
I've never lost the art of sharpening anything [I still wont sharpen saws] I still own an old oil stone and over the years have added various diamond stones, jigs etc etc.... I've even moved on or should I say backwards and used what now is better known as the scary sharp method [was shown this method at least forty years ago by my father].
How do I do it now? with the exception of drill bits I use a Tormek and sometimes a Veritas Mk2 jig. Times move on the Tormek is the best thing I've ever bought.
] Week four was drill bits & Augers by hand with no jigs, of which some in the class found BORING (Pun intended) but I found very interesting in the need for varying angles needed for drilling metal v wood and over the years have probably saved hundreds of pounds by salvageing old bits from the bin. I've never lost the art of sharpening anything [I still wont sharpen saws
] I still own an old oil stone and over the years have added various diamond stones, jigs etc etc.... I've even moved on or should I say backwards and used what now is better known as the scary sharp method [was shown this method at least forty years ago by my father].How do I do it now? with the exception of drill bits I use a Tormek and sometimes a Veritas Mk2 jig. Times move on the Tormek is the best thing I've ever bought.
Alf
Established Member
Try the same on a hard felt or MDF wheel mounted in a grinder and be prepared to go "coo" :shock: Make sure the wheel's turning away from the edge, natch.Paul Chapman":3imc3w23 said:
Perhaps it'd be helpful for beginners to get away from the waterstones/diamonds/oilstones stuff and just think of it all as coarse/medium/fine/extra fine? After all you can pretty much mix and match - except waterstones after oil would be a recipe for disaster I imagine. I dunno, it just seems we do tend to get wrapped up in the form of the abrasive which must just add to the confusion.
Cheers, Alf
Paul Chapman
Established Member
Alf":3rsljf6x said:
Well said, Alf. All roads lead to Rome :wink:
Paul
engineer one
Established Member
but paul that's like the old Irish, "if i were you i would not be starting from here". it has happened to me in Dublin honest.
as usual alf pithy and to the point. but i do think it is possible to start with a diamond and finish with an oil stone, not least because you tend to use a cutting fluid on diamonds, and the oil would help prevent any corrosion.
it is true that in the old times, you got taught about edges before touching the wood, or indeed in my case the metal. now you cut the wood, then wonder why it is so hard.
i think the other problem is the amount of space you need to allow for the sharpening paraphenalia you collect once you start over the top onto the slope.
i think we ALL search for even sharper as we gain experience, hence the sales of ever more complex additional jigs, surfaces and tools.
seems to me the thing is,
chose a medium, diamond/oil/water by a coarse and a fine medium,
then get the jigs even the cheap Hilka/Eclipse type and understand angles and actually using the sharpening equipment. stick with it for at least one year, then try to improve by testing other means, but at least then you have a baseline that you know about.
paul :wink:
as usual alf pithy and to the point. but i do think it is possible to start with a diamond and finish with an oil stone, not least because you tend to use a cutting fluid on diamonds, and the oil would help prevent any corrosion.
it is true that in the old times, you got taught about edges before touching the wood, or indeed in my case the metal. now you cut the wood, then wonder why it is so hard.
i think the other problem is the amount of space you need to allow for the sharpening paraphenalia you collect once you start over the top onto the slope.
i think we ALL search for even sharper as we gain experience, hence the sales of ever more complex additional jigs, surfaces and tools.
seems to me the thing is,
chose a medium, diamond/oil/water by a coarse and a fine medium,
then get the jigs even the cheap Hilka/Eclipse type and understand angles and actually using the sharpening equipment. stick with it for at least one year, then try to improve by testing other means, but at least then you have a baseline that you know about.
paul :wink:
Sgian Dubh
Established Member
Alf":1sy5yktv said:
The odd thing is Alf the older I've got, the less fussy I am about what I use to grind tools and to sharpen them.
Twenty or so years ago I used to swear by grinding with a horizontal running stone with a drip feed of oil from a tank. Nowadays I'm perfectly happy with a high speed grinder as long as it's got a coarse open grit stone on it-- 30 or 60 grit is good. I'm not particularly bothered about seeking and using the soft pink or white stones, but they're fine too.
However, I'm really not keen on the Tormek type systems-- perfectly usable, but far too slow for my impatient nature at the grindstone. Other people I'm aware swear by them.
For final sharpening, again I don't really mind what's thrown in front of me by a learner to demonstrate on. I do have a couple of systems I really don't like, but I'll still use them if that's what the learner's got.
One I don't like is the sandpaper on glass trick. It gets up my nose being far too fiddly-- farting about with bits of glass, acres of paper and spray mount. Someone about ten or fifteen years ago started talking about this new and innovative 'scary sharp' system. I was very disappointed when I found out what it really was, ha, ha. I'd always thought that dodge was the last resort when you'd left your stone in the workshop during an installation.
The other sharpening system I'm not too fond of are the diamond stones with a sort of mesh or grill thing over a plastic base. It's too easy to drop a corner of a blade in a hole but, still, I can work around it.
For my own sharpening I use a couple of ceramic stones in the workshop. I also use combination oil stones on my site tools-- I've got two separate kits-- one good for the workshop and one rough for site work.
I have an 800 grit ceramic stone and the other is probably 4000 grit. The 4000 grit doesn't get used much except if I need a fine polish for some reason. For the most part tools don't need to be super-dooper sharp, just good enough to do the job at hand. I do a bit of final stropping by flipping the blade backwards and forwards on the palm of the hand. There's abunch of slips too that I use, some are oil and some are ceramic. I used to use a couple of Japanese stones too, but when the last one broke I didn't replace it and switched to ceramic stones.
I think whatever works for the user is fine by me. In the end a blade's either sharp enough for the job, or it isn't. Slainte.
MikeW
Established Member
I think Jacob's statement is an absolutely true thing.Mr_Grimsdale":1plet7jz said:
I learned on oil stones as did those who taught me. That was all there was, other than the pedal-powered grindstone we mostly used on axes, adzes, drawknives and such tools.
Oil stones are an incredibly inexpensive "system" with which to begin, or at least can be. I also think Alf's use of the terms of "coarse/medium/fine/extra fine" is a better way to consider and is actually in line with most vendor's sale of oil stones. I would look for a coarse, medium and fine stone and just get on with it.
I also believe we as modern day woodworkers rely too much on self-learning--or learning by the proxy known as the internet--things which were taught by our elders. Something like sharpening, a fundamental skill one would do well to establish at the beginning, is best initially taught in-person. Else for many, muddling through "systems" ensues all too often, producing more frustration as one begins to understand the need for sharp tools and cannot produce them.
In the past, if one did not know how to do something, one who did was sought out. In person. At least in the rural areas, which is my experience. This willingness to seek another in person or the ability to do so is avoided in favor of the internet.
In the US even if our "neighbor" is in the same boat as we are, we can most likely find someone via a local guild, another local woodworker, a competent retailer or a school very easily. If one takes advantage of these resources. I imagine this is true no matter where.
In person learning can make for understanding the mechanics a couple hour endeavor and have a mentor of sorts to aid in further refining technique and correct shortcomings. All the while increasing success in this thing called "sharp" and the whole point of sharpening: woodworking.
OK. Not enough coffee...Take care, Mike
Mirboo
Established Member
I do all my sharpening by hand because I don't have a bench grinder or other powered means of shaping the edge of my tools. My sharpening technique is self taught based on reading books and things I have picked up on forums like this.
My sharpening media is a set of Norton waterstones that I purchased about 12 months ago (when I started using hand planes more in my woodworking). The grits are 220, 1000, 4000, and 8000. I have only used the 220 grit stone once so far, when I made a couple of 10mm chisels into skew chisels and so had a fair bit of metal to remove (even on the 220 grit stone this took a while). If I chipped a blade or put a serious ding in one then I would anticipate using the 220 to correct it but so far I haven't had to. I use the 1000, 4000 and 8000 stones in that order to flatten the backs of blades. I use the 1000 to maintain the primary bevel on my blades and then use the 8000 to produce a micro bevel. I could probably do without the 4000 grit stone if I had to.
Prior to getting hold of the waterstones I used a combination oil stone as my sharpening media. I used this mainly on chisels because I wasn't using planes much until recently. I find that using waterstones achieves a result much quicker than an oil stone.
I use a honing guide, the Veritas MkII for my plane blades and wider chisels, an Eclipse 36 for narrow chisels (the Veritas doesn't hold narrow chisels as well as the Eclipse I don't reckon).
Here are some photographs of shavings I produced today. I was shooting mitres on the end grain of some Tassie (Tasmanian) Oak moulding using my No. 8 bench plane with a blade sharpened using my waterstones. The shavings produced were nice and curly but could be unrolled to show perfect little slices of the moulding. I measured one with a vernier and it was about 0.08mm thick.
I reckon this shows that my plane blade was fairly sharp.
Tassie Oak is a eucalypt hardwood, so named because early European settlers in Australia believed the 3 eucalypt species commonly referred to as Tassie Oak displayed the same strength as English Oak.
I was using my No. 8 as a shooting plane because I like the momentum generated by the weight of the plane. Once you get it going it sails through most things you care to shoot.
My sharpening technique is self taught based on reading books and things I have picked up on forums like this.My sharpening media is a set of Norton waterstones that I purchased about 12 months ago (when I started using hand planes more in my woodworking). The grits are 220, 1000, 4000, and 8000. I have only used the 220 grit stone once so far, when I made a couple of 10mm chisels into skew chisels and so had a fair bit of metal to remove (even on the 220 grit stone this took a while). If I chipped a blade or put a serious ding in one then I would anticipate using the 220 to correct it but so far I haven't had to. I use the 1000, 4000 and 8000 stones in that order to flatten the backs of blades. I use the 1000 to maintain the primary bevel on my blades and then use the 8000 to produce a micro bevel. I could probably do without the 4000 grit stone if I had to.
Prior to getting hold of the waterstones I used a combination oil stone as my sharpening media. I used this mainly on chisels because I wasn't using planes much until recently. I find that using waterstones achieves a result much quicker than an oil stone.
I use a honing guide, the Veritas MkII for my plane blades and wider chisels, an Eclipse 36 for narrow chisels (the Veritas doesn't hold narrow chisels as well as the Eclipse I don't reckon).
Here are some photographs of shavings I produced today. I was shooting mitres on the end grain of some Tassie (Tasmanian) Oak moulding using my No. 8 bench plane with a blade sharpened using my waterstones. The shavings produced were nice and curly but could be unrolled to show perfect little slices of the moulding. I measured one with a vernier and it was about 0.08mm thick.
I reckon this shows that my plane blade was fairly sharp.
Tassie Oak is a eucalypt hardwood, so named because early European settlers in Australia believed the 3 eucalypt species commonly referred to as Tassie Oak displayed the same strength as English Oak.
I was using my No. 8 as a shooting plane because I like the momentum generated by the weight of the plane. Once you get it going it sails through most things you care to shoot.
Alf
Established Member
So is that a yes...? :? Just wondered simply 'cos I find freehand honing a hollow ground edge is like night and day to trying to do hone a flat bevel and wondered if you taught it thusly.
Ian, looks sharp enough to me.
Cheers, Alf
Just wondered simply 'cos I find freehand honing a hollow ground edge is like night and day to trying to do hone a flat bevel and wondered if you taught it thusly.Ian, looks sharp enough to me.
Cheers, Alf
Sgian Dubh
Established Member
Alf":1ugp30fg said:
Now I see what you're asking Alf. The answer is the tools are hollow ground, but that's because the grinders we have are either the high speed grinders or the Tormek.
But whether it's a flat grind or hollow grind really makes no difference as far as I'm concerned. I just sharpen whatever's put in my hand to sharpen.
Sometimes I'll find a blade with a bit of a nick in it and I'll even take that out quickly by 'grinding' a bit of a grinding angle on a piece of 100 grit paper held between forefinger and thumb on top of bit of MDF if it's more bother to go to the grindstone. It's crude, but it works, and you can get back to cutting wood quickly. Slainte.
Alf
Established Member
Ah, I was sort of wondering if it made a difference to your students I suppose. Having read your famous apprentice sharpening piece I imagine you'd just take it as a minor challenge to put an edge on a Dairylea triangle :lol:Sgian Dubh":2hnvslky said:
Cheers, Alf
Keefaz
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Crikey! I opened a can of worms here!
I applied some of the tips here to that Groz 60 1/2 I was moaning about a while back. I flattened the sole as best as I could on some abrasive paper glued to a bit of that coated chipboard stuff (the flattest thing I had). Then I took the blade to the waterstones and only work on the bits required (first 1" or so). Took about an hour overall.
I used it yesterday to clean up some ugly spots and end grain on an easel I made for the missus and it did a terrific job. I'm sure it's not in the same league as your LN 60 1/2, but, by my standards, it was like a knife through butter (or is it dairylea?)
I applied some of the tips here to that Groz 60 1/2 I was moaning about a while back. I flattened the sole as best as I could on some abrasive paper glued to a bit of that coated chipboard stuff (the flattest thing I had). Then I took the blade to the waterstones and only work on the bits required (first 1" or so). Took about an hour overall.
I used it yesterday to clean up some ugly spots and end grain on an easel I made for the missus and it did a terrific job. I'm sure it's not in the same league as your LN 60 1/2, but, by my standards, it was like a knife through butter (or is it dairylea?)
Sgian Dubh
Established Member
I think I'd have trouble with a wedge of cheese Alf, ha, ha.
I do discuss the difference between a hollow grind and a flat grind when I'm teaching sharpening. I leave it up to the students to find what works best for them.
Some learners get it pretty much right away. Others I have to go back and demonstrate three or four times. That's about the limit of the number of times I'll demonstrate sharpening to one struggling learner. In the end they've got to bite the bullet and learn how to do the job themselves. If they can't, or won't learn to sharpen they're probably not really cut out for working wood. Slainte.
I do discuss the difference between a hollow grind and a flat grind when I'm teaching sharpening. I leave it up to the students to find what works best for them.
Some learners get it pretty much right away. Others I have to go back and demonstrate three or four times. That's about the limit of the number of times I'll demonstrate sharpening to one struggling learner. In the end they've got to bite the bullet and learn how to do the job themselves. If they can't, or won't learn to sharpen they're probably not really cut out for working wood. Slainte.
engineer one
Established Member
having made a mess of posting a link earlier, i thought about a useful
analogy.
the computer. basically i have learnt my skills by self training, and really have difficulties with some of the things i am supposed to have learnt.
what is important to remember is that for most of what we actually do with computers, a 386 chipped item would do, but because of a few special users needing super fast working, and the overall costs of development,
the chip companies develop ever faster chips, and dear old microsoft
more complex and power consuming programmes, which take forever to
learn even part of. so we get hussled into buying a new machine because
they get cheaper every year.
most of still can't type and spell properly, and inparticular, not as fast as
the machine can accept the data, but we have bought into the cycle.
i think in many ways the sharpening systems is the same thing.
we only just learn the first bit, then are tempted onto level 3 without understanding level 2.
glad you got your old plane tuned up and improved it so you have learnt a good lesson, and discovered that you can do it, which is why you asked the question.
paul :wink:
analogy.
the computer. basically i have learnt my skills by self training, and really have difficulties with some of the things i am supposed to have learnt.
what is important to remember is that for most of what we actually do with computers, a 386 chipped item would do, but because of a few special users needing super fast working, and the overall costs of development,
the chip companies develop ever faster chips, and dear old microsoft
more complex and power consuming programmes, which take forever to
learn even part of. so we get hussled into buying a new machine because
they get cheaper every year.
most of still can't type and spell properly, and inparticular, not as fast as
the machine can accept the data, but we have bought into the cycle.
i think in many ways the sharpening systems is the same thing.
we only just learn the first bit, then are tempted onto level 3 without understanding level 2.
glad you got your old plane tuned up and improved it so you have learnt a good lesson, and discovered that you can do it, which is why you asked the question.
paul :wink:
Alf
Established Member
And that's the main thing =D> The Groz planes really don't work half bad with a sharp edge. It's setting the darn things that can get frustrating.Keefaz":3gw3ff4r said:
Richard, right, got it now. Thanks. I dunno, I suppose I was expecting that you taught "thou must do x, y and z" forgetting that teaching can equally well be "you can do x or y, here's the differences, choose what's best for you". Must admit I prefer the second approach.
Cheers, Alf
bugbear
Established Member
engineer one":1aaxa2d2 said:
Try a convex (or pitted) 2 1/2" super hard woodie blade (e.g. I Sorby or Ward & Payne, Ibbotson...).
"they" certainly didn't worry about flatness, and the steel is tempered very high.
Lovely blades once prepped though.
BugBear
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