selling wooden toys

[Gary Morris]

I would say that 'all' wood has the potential to be harmful, thats why you would need due diligence. It's not only the wood, there's adhesive, nails, screws, additional add ons IE 'eyes, wheels, then theres the finish / finishes and any packaging. All of which could be harmful.

You can get COSHH data sheets for any liquids, I would imagine, which would cover you in that respect. I would have thought that any large or specalised timber outlet would be able to provide some sort of document to say that their 'pine is free from' or has a detailed data sheet.

It will be interesting to hear what the TS has to say.

 

[deserter]

There is a list of woods considered toxic on one of the websites, I can't remember which one though. I'll check my old college notes later for you and find out.


~Nil carborundum illegitemi~

 

[Eric The Viking]

I suggest several things:

• Put your policy somewhere on your web site, but NOT your musings about it - very off-putting.
• Get or make a (heated) brand for your maker's name and the CE mark. It's a quick way of doing it, and can be placed somewhere out of sight. Add to that a design ref. and a batch no. and/or date code. If trading standards see you're working hard to comply, you'll get a much better reception. If you can do a brand with a _short_ URL, it would also act as a free advert! Failing that, you could silk-screen, but it's messy and takes longer with things that aren't flat.
• Beech is a good material, as it's got anti-bacterial properties, is easy to work, finishes nicely and is probably easier to trace.
• Consider using food colourings as dyes, instead of paint. That solves your safety issues, in that regard, and there is a wide range of colours available. Also try to stick with glues such as Titebond II that are rated for food-use products (see what I did there). If possible avoid metal fastenings for loads of reasons - glued pegs/dowels, etc. should avoid problems, but watch out for designs that might cause splinters or sharp edges if trodden on.
• There are nowadays legal requirements about what information must appear on a trade-purposed web site, e.g. business name and location. Even if you're not selling directly from the site, you need these things.
• The "Limited" in a limited liability company means just that: the _shareholders'_ liabilities are limited. The term is intended to be a warning to those doing business with it! You don't escape personal liability if something horrible happens (heaven forfend!), but it does protect family, etc. who might fund you.

I share your frustration - When you consider the organic chemistry in cheap plastics, and the granules that were swept off the floor of the factory and returned to the hoppers, and the mould release agents, and the fillers, and the colourants, and the chemicals in the cardboard packaging and printing inks, (and so on, and so on), it's obvious that the regulations are just what you'd expect -- designed to favour the big players (as someone else said above). But you're stuck with them.

If I were Trading Standards, I'd much prefer to visit a keen-to-comply small business, than be wearing an anti-stab vest raiding a pound store for knock-offs. If you have a first-go at sourcing and documentation, then ask them to vet you, you'll probably get a very positive response.

I think reclaimed materials are an absolute non-starter though. You simply can't audit the supply chain for safety. TS will pick on this immediately.

HTH,

E.

I'm NOTa lawyer - above are my opinions only - use at your own risk.

 

[JakeS]

Failing that, you could silk-screen

Silk-screening is sometimes used for non-standard dice for board games - and they're notorious for the screened faces rubbing off and leaving you with an unmarked cube in relatively short order.

I guess it's not so critical once the toy has been sold, but if you want to be sure of your maker's name to hang around it's probably worth going for a brand or stamp or something else that actually makes a physical impression on the wood.

 

[tsg]

Eric, point taken about my 'musings', offending part now removed. Thanks for the advice re legislation about web sites, if we ever do set up a business I will be sure to comply.
I like your idea about a branding iron but a quick search on the net has shown me that those commercially available are quite expensive. Anyone found any reasonably priced ones??
It had been my plan to attach a 'business' type card to each toy containing the CE mark, date of manufacture, name and address and any other details required as I had felt that marking the actual toy was impractical. However this would mean that I would need to certify that the cards and ink were child safe as well as any cord/sting used . It just goes on and on.
Paul

 

[Gary Morris]

Could you not get a cheap soldering iron and craft a copper CE to fit into it, or a cheap pyrography kit and burn it in freehand? (some kits have small irons in different shapes that fit the pen thing)
Does it have to be permanently affixed, or could you print and stick one on?

If you have a suppliers catalouge or printed statement that states that all stocks of Beech planks are free from any added treatment - regarding certifying things, surly this would be sufficient proof. (just an example) If the tin of paint states it's safe for kids - surly the tin is your certifying object. All you would need to do is log certain details per job.

Gary

 

[JakeS]

Does it have to be permanently affixed, or could you print and stick one on?

Certainly one sees a lot of CE stickers on products at the cheaper end of the scale.

That said, I've seen at least one (American) source claiming that all you need to do to comply with European law is stick a CE sticker on your product, so whether they're all necessarily 'proper' is another matter.

The advantage to having a permanent mark is that you can leave a company name or URL on there, so if parents have friends around and get asked "hey, that's a nice wooden toy you have there, where can we get one?" they can easily find the information!

 

[beech1948]

My only concern at this time is the chemical analysis part of EN71. I have asked them if I can assume that any natural pine that I buy from a reputable seller is free of any of the prohibited or restricted chemicals as pine has been tested previously and found to be safe. If I self certify based on that assumption have I shown due diligence if it transpires that chemicals were present.

Paul

This is quite an interesting question. The legislation both the BS EN71 and EU primary legislation specifies the number of different chemicals ( about 7) and the amounts which can be tolerated being present.

Therefore the question is " Is it possible to quickly and cheaply test for these chemicals". looking at the list of chemicalsd involved it would seem that some 6th form chemistry could easily test for the presence of the chemicals leaving you with a use or not use decision.

Al

 

[tsg]

I have now received a reply from trading standards. I have copied it below as it is only short and it contains links to some useful documents including details of the necessary info needed for the technical file. I thought it would be useful to have the links on here permenantly.

"Dear Mr Fox
I have been passed your email re Toy Making (below) for response.
It appears from your email that you have already done considerable research yourself, so I will concentrate on your specific queries.
In respect of the 'natural pine wood from B&Q', it may be more appropriate to seek a written assurance from B&Q that the wood they sell should not contain any of the chemicals restricted by the Toys Safety Directive. Whether you decide to carry out any safety testing should be based upon the risk presented. For example, if you decide to use 'reclaimed' wood rather than 'virgin / untreated' wood there would be a greater risk of chemical contamination. Any assurance you obtained or testing you carried out would need to be renewed / repeated if you changed your source of wood.

With regard to your technical files, generic files are permitted as long as the differences between toys and the documents unique to individual toys are held. You can find further guidance on the technical documentation requirements here:

http://ec.europa.eu/enterprise/sectors/ ... 1-2_en.pdf

I appreciate that you have done some research yourself, but for completeness sake, I would refer you to the following documents:

Toys Safety Directive background information
http://ec.europa.eu/enterprise/sectors/ ... dex_en.htm

The Toys (Safety) Regulations 2011
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2011 ... tents/made

Requirements for Internal Production Control (self verification) - see Module A of Annex II
http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/Lex ... 128:enDF

Finally I would be grateful if you could confirm your postal address so that I can properly record the advice that I have given you.

If you have any queries please let me know.

Regards

Karen
__________________________________

Karen Springford
Principal Trading Standards Officer
Kent County Council"

So, as long as I can get written confirmation from a supplier of softwood that their wood does not contain any of the restricted or prohibited chemicals I should be good to go. Just a matter of finding someone to insure me in this venture

 

[Gary Morris]

I would say you would need documentation of any and all materials used. I would also save receipts to show that you have bought the stuff from them.

Gary

 

[Eric The Viking]

They sound quite approachable. As discussed, watch out for swallowable parts, etc., and ensure you have an audit trail. If you can't do a brand, you might use number punches (as used in metalwork) to stamp a date/design code somewhere out of the way.

I'm sure if you offered TS coffee and cake, they might be lured out to come and vet them for things you've missed. As they know you're trying to do it right, you'll be a breath of fresh air, compared to the usual riff-raff they deal with.

I'd also do a bit of Googling to see if there's a trade association, too, and ask your local Chamber of Commerce, and/or the FSB if they know of one (FSB membership costs around £100/year, and includes good legal cover, incidentally). I bet someone somewhere has done an 'silly person's guide' to the regs.

I still have the toy train my grandpa made for me in 1961. If he were alive now and tried to make another, he'd be probably be prosecuted! The trouble is that it's not people like him (or you) it's aimed at. It's just you'd be the easiest to catch.

Ho Hum.
E.

 

[Nick Gibbs]

I've been making simple toys to sell at fairs, and I'm afraid it never crossed my mind to get a CE mark for them! I have no intention of doing so. However I do try to make them fundamentally safe, though one visitor cut herself on one of them at a show! I have public liability insurance for attending shows and for the folk I employ, but otherwise hope for the best, which isn't probably clever, but I don't have the time nor inclination to get a CE mark. I would give it a go, and then decide if you need more robust 'insurance' as you get larger.

Nick

 

[Eric The Viking]

I don't want to be a bore, Nick (and I most certainly don't approve of the system), but there is a legal requirement to conform to the safety standards for toys.

If you sell any product in the EU as a commercial activity, by law it must carry a CE mark. You'll be absolutely fine until trading standards come across them, at which point confiscation is the best outcome you can hope for! They're not (all) jobsworths, but they need good press coverage, and nobody will look beyond "illegal toys seized at fair". You'd be unlikely to get the chance to put an opposing point of view, and in any case you probably would want to keep quiet with a prosecution pending.

On the positive side (if there is one), CE is self-certification. It's a sign of a 'declaration' by you that the items conform to the relevant directives, so if you keep the requisite documentation about materials (an audit trail/chain of custody), you probably can just mark things.

It gives me no pleasure to write this. I stood as a parliamentary candidate for UKIP on more than one occasion I know of a greengrocer in the North East, Steve Thoburn, who was driven to an early grave by trying to fight for the right to sell food in imperial weights. he was prosecuted relentlessly by trading standards and his business destroyed (his scales, incidentally were properly certified as accurate, but that didn't help).

E.

 

[Nick Gibbs]

I know, Eric. I'm sure you're right. I don't mean to sound too gung-ho and disrespectful of the laugh. Self certification sounds like a good idea. It is only a matter of time before I get stung by hurting the wrong child. I'll have a look at it.

Nick

 

[tsg]

I'm still trying to find a wood supplier that is willing to state that their softwood is probably free of all the restricted chemicals. Once I do this I think I will be almost ready to self certify. If you know of anywhere please let me know.
Nick, where did you get your public liability insurance from and roughly how much?
Paul

 

[Nick Gibbs]

I think it costs about £300. I'll check tomorrow where we get it.

 

[beech1948]

I wonder if the wood issue can be solved by giving the supplier a formal order which requires wood to be

" virgin wood which is untreated with any chemicals"

I am guessing that getting a supplier to issue you with a certificate re BS EN 71 is probably a non-starter for them. The wording above on your order they would understand in their own terms.

This might exonerate you from any future problems.

I also guess that the bigger factories simply don't ask or don't make a fuss about it.

Al

 

[tsg]

No luck so far with any wood supplier, so a begging letter to trading standards seems in order......................

"Hi Karen,

sorry for the delay in replying, and thank you for getting back to me. I have emailed a number of companies including one of the largest pine importers in the country that supplies nearly all the well known outlets, but so far I have had no positive results. However now that you have given me this advice, I feel that I must follow it to stay on the right side of Trading Standards.

Do you know of any other wooden toy makers in the area that could point me in the direction of a suitable supplier, or do they just chance it? I am sure that new wood should comply, but how am I supposed to prove it? Have you or your colleagues seen any certification re the wood in any of the technical files you have viewed?

There are a number of companies / people in the UK that make and sell wooden toys, is there any way you could advise me how they achieve the CE mark, so that I can try and do the same.

The cost of having a wood sample tested for all of the chemicals on the list would prohibit anyone other than a very large mass producer, from entering this industry.

Many thanks in advance,

Paul
(A somewhat frustrated Toy maker in waiting)"

......................I will post the reply on here as and when I receive it.

If I ever get anything positive, by sharing on here should enable any one else interested in toy making to use my route without having to do the leg work.

Paul

 

[Eric The Viking]

Paul,

With respect, I think you are forgetting rule #1 in these circumstances:

"Don't take on responsibilities that belong to others."

You're a wooden toymaker. It's not reasonable to expect you to chemically test new wood for pollutants. Nor are you responsible for the environment the trees grow in and the chemicals they thus absorb, unless you indicate that you want to be!

For example, it's a safe bet that any recently-felled timber from north eastern Europe (Scandinavia) has traces of radiation from Chernobyl, and dioxins and heavy metals from industry and vehicle pollution. It's probably now even got isotopes that came from Fukushima, and older stands of timber will probably have detectable 'records' of Hiroshima and Nagasaki!

That's not stopping other people from using it, but if you have a report saying that (or you encourage someone else to create one!) you may then have a large and immediate problem, one that didn't previously exist.

On the other hand, if you have a chain of custody established, and someone else tells you, on the record, that it's virgin timber, AND THEN it proves to be contaminated somehow, that's not your fault. Any legal action arising would founder on the fact you've done DUE diligence (emphasis on 'due').

I'm not a lawyer, but I'd guess that's something like what one might tell you.

 

[RogerBoyle]

Paul,

With respect, I think you are forgetting rule #1 in these circumstances:

"Don't take on responsibilities that belong to others."

You're a wooden toymaker. It's not reasonable to expect you to chemically test new wood for pollutants. Nor are you responsible for the environment the trees grow in and the chemicals they thus absorb, unless you indicate that you want to be!

For example, it's a safe bet that any recently-felled timber from north eastern Europe (Scandinavia) has traces of radiation from Chernobyl, and dioxins and heavy metals from industry and vehicle pollution. It's probably now even got isotopes that came from Fukushima, and older stands of timber will probably have detectable 'records' of Hiroshima and Nagasaki!

That's not stopping other people from using it, but if you have a report saying that (or you encourage someone else to create one!) you may then have a large and immediate problem, one that didn't previously exist.

On the other hand, if you have a chain of custody established, and someone else tells you, on the record, that it's virgin timber, AND THEN it proves to be contaminated somehow, that's not your fault. Any legal action arising would founder on the fact you've done DUE diligence (emphasis on 'due').

I'm not a lawyer, but I'd guess that's something like what one might tell you.

Well Said =D> =D>