Seeking recomendations for a very durable table saw

[Sci]

I'm aiming to open a makerspace in East London and a large proportion of people interested in joining want a well set up wookworking room.
A friend who used to be a cabinet maker advised that I want a dimension saw not a generic panel saw, but hasn't got back to me with any more specific advice and I need something to throw into the budget estimates.

While we'll have a staff to keep on top of maintenance, I think we want to budget for something hard-wearing. Something commercial grade or that might survive a school/training-like environment. I'm anticipating something vintage or that may need some customising.

Please throw some likely model numbers at me.

 

[sammy.se]

Hi, Can you tell us more about what you think people will be making? And would it be the general public using this saw or your staff?

Its a dangerous tool - even for seasoned woodworkers.




Sent from my Nexus 5X using Tapatalk

 

[Jamied]

A Sedgewick is what you need.
Tough , robust, cast iron top, easy to maintain, simple to use, most come with a sliding table to be used as a dimension table.
Can still be bought new or available second hand.
Often used in schools and colleges.

 

[julianf]

I doubt that you will be able to let any walk-in user near a table saw.

I used to work in a school - I know that the DT department kept the kit like table saws in a separate staff-only room.

In which case your "durability" probably isn't as much of a concern as it won't get the same level of misuse.

 

[Sci]

Hi, Can you tell us more about what you think people will be making? And would it be the general public using this saw or your staff?

Its a dangerous tool - even for seasoned woodworkers.

The survey results from last year suggest 31% of people interested in makerspaces wanted to use them for woodworking. 18% wanted woodworking hand tools, 9% wanted a table saw specifically. Those were the two largest single responses. As for what they're intending to make, that's likely to be very varied but can be anticipated that they'll expand to the limit of what two or three people can handle lugging about together. So we'll be looking for a good general purpose machine, but not one that requires too much reconfiguring to change uses.

The saw will be for public use but behind an access control system. Access will be permitted after they've shown basic competence, safe behaviour and paid a security deposit in case of damage through misuse. Same for things like the lathe, milling machine, lasercutter, etc, but the saw will likely have one of the more strict competence tests. Being accountable for your own use of the available tools will be in the core membership agreement.

Sadly none of the sawstop systems seem like they import to the UK, even if they'd run on UK power or were remotely affordable.

 

[Sci]

I doubt that you will be able to let any walk-in user near a table saw.

I used to work in a school - I know that the DT department kept the kit like table saws in a separate staff-only room.

In which case your "durability" probably isn't as much of a concern as it won't get the same level of misuse.

I did contact my old school which had a fairly well set up DT department to get an idea of what sort of skills I should expect any school-leaving members to have and was told by the department head in complete seriousness; "If we had a specific student of extraordinary skill who wanted to make something explicit, and we trusted them, and we were there to supervise constantly, we MIGHT let them use a chisel."

A makerspace is not a museum for just learning what tools used to look like though, so I'm asking on the assumption tools for schools are intended to be more durable than most other use cases, however the staff restrict them.

I'd just like a nice bit of equipment that won't be permanently ruined the first time someone "borrows" an authorised users card and trys to cut a portable stereo in half or jam wood against the cutter in the wrong direction. It takes a special level of wilful misuse to shear the spindle off the motor, but I've seen it done twice at other makerspaces.

 

[Sci]

A Sedgewick is what you need.
Tough , robust, cast iron top, easy to maintain, simple to use, most come with a sliding table to be used as a dimension table.
Can still be bought new or available second hand.
Often used in schools and colleges.

Thanks for the recommendation! From a quick look at ebay, more modern ones seem to go in the £1200-2500 bracket, and vintage ones a bit under £1000. Does that sound about right to you?

 

[MikeJhn]

The main problem of any table saw, and the vintage ones are worse, is the lack of dust control, you may also find that a vintage machine has most of its safety equipment and panels missing, so if going the second hand route take care on what you are going for, preferably get someone with commercial/HS experience to look it over for you.

 

[Sci]

Thanks, that's a good point to consider. I'll be contributing most of my metalworking tools to this workshop though, so in the worst case we should have the capability to fabricate replacement parts or adaptors for used equipment.

 

[MusicMan]

Agreed, one must do a safety audit of any tool like this, and then if there is an accident - whatever consent forms they have signed - you have a paper trail that you have done a risk assessment for the individual. A consent form won't protect you against negligence (e.g. critical safety parts missing).

I also agree that you will need a capable plumbed in dust extraction system, which can cost as much as the saw.

I don't know much about the legalities, but I wonder whether it would be constructive to set it up as some form of cooperative, where everyone has some degree of joint ownership and joint responsibility?

Having said all that, I think it is worth persisting. One of the main benefits of having those sorts of tools is precisely that they are difficult to access unless one has a big, well-equipped workshop.

 

[RobinBHM]

Hi Sci, I hope you dont mind Ive just sent you a PM as I have a Wadkin PK for sale.

Im not trying to tout for business, its been sitting in my workshop for over 2 years and its time I got rid of it.

Apols to mods if this flouts any rules!

 

[TFrench]

Similarly, I have a wadkin BGP panel saw to sell. Not in the same league as a PK though!

 

[MusicMan]

Two good offers there!

 

[Sci]

Agreed, one must do a safety audit of any tool like this, and then if there is an accident - whatever consent forms they have signed - you have a paper trail that you have done a risk assessment for the individual. A consent form won't protect you against negligence (e.g. critical safety parts missing).

I also agree that you will need a capable plumbed in dust extraction system, which can cost as much as the saw.

I don't know much about the legalities, but I wonder whether it would be constructive to set it up as some form of cooperative, where everyone has some degree of joint ownership and joint responsibility?

Having said all that, I think it is worth persisting. One of the main benefits of having those sorts of tools is precisely that they are difficult to access unless one has a big, well-equipped workshop.

Asking some others who run spaces, it sounds likely that while no individual could be held liable in such a co-op, the organisation as a whole still would.
My personal experience as a member of one previously was making part of the usage agreement that you didn't attempt to use tools you weren't already competent with, but as far as I'm aware that doesn't have much legal standing.

I'm looking at a workshop run by a co-op of attendants, but separate from the subscribing userbase. It's my hope that will avoid a lot of community issues down the line and provide clear workshop authority, as rules tend to blur rapidly in community-organised ones. It's my hope that testing to show users are capable of behaving competently before giving them access, combined with the access control system generating upkeep and maintenance schedules will be defence enough should an accident ever go to court. Hopefully we can also set it to trigger associated cameras on the security system when in use too. We can show the machines were in a well maintained state and the person involved was capable of behaving safely, even if they chose not to on that occasion. But ultimately the whole thing's a dangerous thing to do, and the only way to prevent it entirely is not to do it at all. For everything else, we get insurance.

 

[Sci]

Also thankyou for the offers! It's a bit early to accept any though since we don't currently have a venue and as such limited storage. It'll likely be a few months yet.

 

[MikeJhn]

Brings back memories, competent training personnel, competent persons register, register of who is using what on a day to day basis, who supervises those that have not attained competency, how many hours to achieve competency, hazard analysis and risk assessments, and a register of same, method statements, Ahh the list goes on, no better place to look than the HSE web site.

 

[julianf]

I would imagine insurance would be required.

Would you be happy to underwrite people "off the street" using a table saw?

I don't know quite how it happened, other than a table saw was involved, but I used to know someone who actually had a hook...

I chop stuff up all day long. In other areas I deal with chemicals that disolved flesh. I sometimes use pumped air breathing equipment to deal with cyanide gasses, and used to be the chap that dealt with the radioactive stuff....

...and my own table saw scares me more than any of them.

You (the op) seem confident that it's all fine and dandy - your main concern seems to be people braking the saw, whilst my main concern would be the saw breaking people.

I really hope my fears are entirely misplaced. Again, I used to know a chap with a hook for a hand...

 

[Sci]

I would imagine insurance would be required.

Would you be happy to underwrite people "off the street" using a table saw?

I don't know quite how it happened, other than a table saw was involved, but I used to know someone who actually had a hook...

I chop stuff up all day long. In other areas I deal with chemicals that disolved flesh. I sometimes use pumped air breathing equipment to deal with cyanide gasses, and used to be the chap that dealt with the radioactive stuff....

...and my own table saw scares me more than any of them.

You (the op) seem confident that it's all fine and dandy - your main concern seems to be people braking the saw, whilst my main concern would be the saw breaking people.

I really hope my fears are entirely misplaced. Again, I used to know a chap with a hook for a hand...

My apologies. I hope I didn't sound dismissive of peoples safety, it's just that the same general use-safety concerns are going to apply to a cheapo PowerDevil tablesaw as to that Wadkin PK (disregarding model-specific features and power). So it's not the aspect I was looking for help on here. I'm asking for recommendations of durable saws because I would expect them to remain in a known state longer. It will keep maintenance down, yes, but I would presume it'll also mean less parts coming loose or getting worn out of spec, making it mechanically more reliable and as such safer. Durable makes it more of a known quantity and something that we won't have to worry will get dangerously worn or damaged between user 4 and user 56 on a busy Saturday.

I've also worked with nasty acids, high-voltage, hydrogen stoves, liquid nitrogen, plasma and lasers and my own table saw is also the tool that scares the hell out of me the most. My grandfather knew a guy who had the bones pulled out of his thumb & forearm by reaching across a live table saw and had to spend months with his wrist sewn to his stomach to fill the void with fat. Or at least that's the story he impressed on me.

I am honestly inclined to make a training video that includes dropping a leg of pork pumped full of fake blood onto a live (disposable!) saw just to try and pass on what feels like a very worthy state of respect through fear. Provided we can make a nice solid enclosure to do it in remotely anyway. Any tool that can make the bone splinters of what used to be part of your body into deadly projectiles themselves deserves upmost caution. (we're unlikely to be looking to get a spindle moulder)

To answer your first question though; no. Any piece of equipment at the space that requires authorisation to use will not be accessible to any day-users. They will largely only be given access to hand tools and even then only with an additional security deposit. Day users don't have the same accountability as regular users. If anyone's caught using the tools in unsafe ways, they'll get banned from the equipment, loose their deposits and have to wait a minimum period before they can apply to do the training again, with an increased deposit. Do it again and you'll probably get a permanent ban from using that tool as well as the second of your three strikes toward having your membership cancelled. But we're still writing the CoC so there may be additional requirements like only being eligible for authorisation after a set period of membership, but that may not work out well.

If day users want work done on those tools they'll have to ask permitted regular members to do the job for them.

There are also a couple of specialist insurers who offer policies to makerspaces these days.