sash windows

[Jacob]

Somebody contacted me for sash window making advice a few days ago but I accidentally trashed the email. If he sees this - sorry please try again!

 

[Phil Pascoe]

If you haven't wiped your incoming PMs it'll still be there.

 

[Jacob]

It was an email I wiped not a PM

 

[Doug B]

When I wipe my emails they go into the trash for about month before vanishing so I can retrieve them within that time, don’t know if your Mac works the same :-k

 

[Phil Pascoe]

That's why I thought it must have been a PM.

 

[Argus]

I do hope that you are reunited with your enquirer soon, Jacob – it’s an area of woodworking that has long interested me from a distance.

However, this post has prompted the thought that sliding sash windows, their history, making and repair is a huge grey area considering how many there still are installed all over the world. Taking scrapped units apart to study their construction today is easier said than done; in my experience they are scarce and tend to reveal a great deal more about botched repairs.

There is not much literature of substance still available on the design and construction of sliding sash windows. A few fragments in old publications and reprints. Lost Art Press in the USA, reprinted a Victorian text on window and door making some while ago but it does not go into much detail – it was, after all a small pocket book – but it does state that skills were inherited on the job, passed on and this is where much of the knowledge has gone to the graves with the craftsmen. Only incomplete sets of sash planes, ovolos and scribing sets remain

Except for essential conservation, current building regulations have largely confined wooden sliding sash window sets to museum pieces, replaced by plastics; despite casements being on the face of it an easier construction, sash windows were universal up to the 1920’s – even for the thousands of quite humble terraced two-up, two-down terraces built by the Victorians.

Is there an unfulfilled need for a good, detailed book on the subject? I hope so.
Just an observation.......

 

[Jacob]

.......Taking scrapped units apart to study their construction today is easier said than done; in my experience they are scarce and tend to reveal a great deal more about botched repairs............

If you are lucky you get asked to repair/service old joinery and there is no better learning process*. As well as learning how it was put together you learn what/why things fail. Knowing what won't work is more important than knowing what will - it's the weakest link. Knowing what bodged repairs don't work is valuable too, you might also come across successful repairs.
PS * and furniture too. A wood stove is an essential learning tool - you get to pull apart and cut up old joinery/furniture and in the process examine every inch!
If I was a teacher I'd buy any old junk from auctions and start by carefully pulling it apart - an anatomy class.

 

[yetloh]

I do hope that you are reunited with your enquirer soon, Jacob – it’s an area of woodworking that has long interested me from a distance.

However, this post has prompted the thought that sliding sash windows, their history, making and repair is a huge grey area considering how many there still are installed all over the world. Taking scrapped units apart to study their construction today is easier said than done; in my experience they are scarce and tend to reveal a great deal more about botched repairs.

There is not much literature of substance still available on the design and construction of sliding sash windows. A few fragments in old publications and reprints. Lost Art Press in the USA, reprinted a Victorian text on window and door making some while ago but it does not go into much detail – it was, after all a small pocket book – but it does state that skills were inherited on the job, passed on and this is where much of the knowledge has gone to the graves with the craftsmen. Only incomplete sets of sash planes, ovolos and scribing sets remain

Except for essential conservation, current building regulations have largely confined wooden sliding sash window sets to museum pieces, replaced by plastics; despite casements being on the face of it an easier construction, sash windows were universal up to the 1920’s – even for the thousands of quite humble terraced two-up, two-down terraces built by the Victorians.

Is there an unfulfilled need for a good, detailed book on the subject? I hope so.
Just an observation.......

I suggest you contact the Tools and Trades History Society who have quite an extensive library and may be able to help. Their website is here www.taths.org.uk/. Alternatively, the SPab is worth a look https:. //www.spab.org.uk/ I think they have publications which might just include something that would help.

Jim

 

[AndyT]

There is not much literature of substance still available on the design and construction of sliding sash windows. A few fragments in old publications and reprints. Lost Art Press in the USA, reprinted a Victorian text on window and door making some while ago but it does not go into much detail

While I agree that looking at old windows is a really good way to learn about how they were made, I'd like to add some notes on the literature. As far as I know there isn't a huge amount - not enough people outside the trade and its apprenticeships would have needed to know this stuff, so it didn't get written down much.

I have the LAP book, and the Woodworker booklets it was derived from. Although brief, I'd say it is the most comprehensive step by step description of how to lay out, make and install sliding sash and other windows using hand tool methods. It does assume that the reader is already familiar with joiner's work and knows how to use tools - it's not a beginner's book - but it is thorough.

I reckon the next most detailed description is in Cassell's Carpentry and Joinery from 1907. Links to read this online are in this useful thread, which covers more info as well:

sash-window-book-t59255.html

You might also like some of the more historical information contained in or linked to from this thread:

early-sash-window-shutters-research-t103668.html

If you want the recent US article that Benchwayze found, it's still on the same site but at a different url, here

gpaelgin.org/wp-content/uploads/making-window-sash.pdf

 

[thomashenry]

I really wish Paul Sellers (or someone like that) would do a thurough, definitive video series on making sash windows by hand - both the sashes and the box frame. I think it would be a great help to many people, and help preserve an important part of our craft heritage.

This summer I re-made by hand the frame of one of my windows, but was able to re-use the sashes as they weren't rotten. I just needed to take them apart and re-glue the joints, as they were quite loose when the paint came off.

The frame was made by reference to the existing one, and also by reference to "Door making and Window Making" from the lost art press. No complex joinery - really wasn't that hard.

 

[Trevanion]

I really wish Paul Sellers (or someone like that) would do a thurough, definitive video series on making sash windows by hand - both the sashes and the box frame. I think it would be a great help to many people, and help preserve an important part of our craft heritage.

I could always take photos of the next sash job I do and do a thread on the forum if that would interest anyone.

 

[doctor Bob]

I really wish Paul Sellers (or someone like that) would do a thurough, definitive video series on making sash windows by hand - both the sashes and the box frame. I think it would be a great help to many people, and help preserve an important part of our craft heritage.

I could always take photos of the next sash job I do and do a thread on the forum if that would interest anyone.

That window looks great. I have sashes in my new build house. Absolutely love them, such great quality and draft free.

 

[johnnyb]

A sash making sticky would be a wondrous thing. I've seen great tomes written on much less interesting subjects. I leant one out called " making concrete countertops" that would fall into that category!

 

[AndyT]

It would sit well next to the very popular sticky on making a casement window

making-a-casement-window-single-glazed-t101943.html

Personally, I'd love to see one made by hand, but commercial machine based work is interesting as well.

 

[Trevanion]

Personally, I'd love to see one made by hand, but commercial machine based work is interesting as well.

You would be surprised how much hand work goes into making one!

 

[John Brown]

I would also welcome a sticky how-to on sash construction, although I have concerns that I might be breaking the law if I don't have FENSA certification.
What is the fine line between repair and replacement?
If I replace the glass one year, and replace the frame next, are we getting into Trigger's broom territory?

 

[Jacob]

I would also welcome a sticky how-to on sash construction, although I have concerns that I might be breaking the law if I don't have FENSA certification.
What is the fine line between repair and replacement?
If I replace the glass one year, and replace the frame next, are we getting into Trigger's broom territory?

I think common sense rules - I've never heard of anybody having a prob even with total replacement/replication. They aren't out to get you.
Loads of youtube stuff https://www.youtube.com/results?search_ ... sh+windows
There was a TV prog with me and Tommy Walsh doing some window repairs but it's so long ago it might have disappeared.

 

[Trevanion]

I have concerns that I might be breaking the law if I don't have FENSA certification.
What is the fine line between repair and replacement?
If I replace the glass one year, and replace the frame next, are we getting into Trigger's broom territory?

We don’t have FENSA certification and we’ve been replacing doors and windows in the national park (which can be even fussier) for years now. You should be alright, all it really means is that the person is qualified to fit windows effectively. And a good chunk of FENSA certified window fitters (plastics mainly) are absolutely abysmal.

Even if the question of FENSA comes up, you can get your work retrospectively signed off by a building officer.

 

[mr rusty]

I've recently DIY made 7 DG sash windows for a house project in Accoya. One of the big window companies who specialises in this area posts up all their cad drawings which were a good start - mumford and something :lol: :lol:

as far as I am concerned they are repairs not new as some parts of the old windows are re-used (the weights). However even if BC got funny the fee to get them to approve is not much. If using DG do get the correct spec units though.

 

[Dusty]

I have to admit to only ever having been involved in the repair of sliding sash over the years , but I am presently in the middle of a job refurbishing 54 on a single property , ranging in size up to 3 metres high , after going through them the common denominator of failure has been lack of paint over the years . They are only 35 years old and the timber of sound quality , but down to lack on maintanance , they have all suffered rot at the cills where water has been able to get in via the bottom of the D mould / parting bead , aling with not having been fully painted all around the boxes pre fitting , so moisture has crept in to the sides and caused more rot .

The design is very simple by most standards but the production and attention to the details is critcal .

I currently have 3 in the workshop for bigger repairs if anyone is south somerset based you are more than welcome to view for your own needs .

Cheers