Restoring Old Gouges

[pollys13]

I have a couple of gouges I'd like to clean up, see attached. Any surface rust on them was removed by soaking in vinegar.
I'll Google and also look for forum posts on the subject before that anyone any suggestions? I'm intending to turn a couple of replacement handles.
Cheers.

 

[undergroundhunter]

Why do you want to replace the handles, are they split? Just sharpen them up and off you go.

Matt

 

[AndyT]

To remove the dull grey residue from the vinegar, you can use any abrasive you prefer. A wire brush, abrasive paper, wire wool - all will work. If you want to go back to new steel, start with a coarse grade and work down to something finer.
If you just want them 'clean' it's easier. I like Abraflex blocks - they are good for removing rust and leaving steel.

I would advise against replacing the handles unless you are sure you can do as good a job as a Sheffield specialist did. Getting the handles straight and in line with the cutting edge is more important than fancy wood.

Basically, just sharpen them and use them!

 

[ColeyS1]

It's the first time I tried the vinegar removal Peter. I gave them a good rinse under the tap but have later read that you should neutralise them with bicarbonate of soda. That might be another job you need to add to the list

Coley

 

[Cheshirechappie]

I wouldn't replace the handles either, unless they're very loose or damaged. The smaller one is a rather nice boxwood carver handle; it would be very hard to upgrade on that. They'd benefit from a bit of a clean, but nothing vicious - a wipe over with a damp cloth or reviver mixture (see AndyT's sticky at the top of the Hand Tools board, particularly the thread on cleaning tools with reviver mixture). You don't need much mixture by the way - a couple of teaspoonfuls would be more than enough for those two handles.

A good rub with wire wool should be all the blades need, then maybe a smear of micro-crystalline wax once clean.

Sharpening gouges can be a bit of a fiddle compared to bench chisels. Forming a bevel on the grinder (light touch, concentrate, roll the bevel over the wheel and don't let it dwell) at 25 degrees gets the bulk of the work done. Honing the bevel can be done on an oilstone or similar, using one of two techniques. The first is to move it up and down the face of the stone just like a chisel, but rolling the gouge from one side of the cutting edge to the other. The second is to hold the gouge at right angles to the stone, and roll the bevel at the same time as moving up and down the stone. Some people prefer one way, some the other - there's no material difference in effectiveness. Either way, aim for a working bevel of about 30 degrees for out-cannel (firmer) gouges. (In-cannel (scribing or paring) gouges can be honed a bit lower - say about 25 degrees - because they tend not to be used with a mallet; that may vary depending on timber and work being done, though.)

The inside of the gouge is a bit of a problem; it can either be polished with a fine slip, taking care not to dub the edge, or worked with a piece of very fine wet-and-dry (say 2000 grit, or similar) glued to a piece of dowel.

Finish with a strop on leather or wood, or Autosol applied to suitable dowel, to remove any last vestiges of wire edge, and you should be good to go!

 

[woodpig]

I found the best way of removing rust is with a battery charger and washing soda. Google "Rust removal with electrolysis " You will find it just removes the rust and doesn't attack the remaining steel like acid does.

 

[ED65]

anyone any suggestions?

De-rust, oil or wax, sharpen, put to use. That's about it really!

With the average chisels or gouges that have handles in this sort of condition I'd expect that just scrubbing the rust off will do enough. And it prevents the 'tide mark' you get from partially immersing something in vinegar.

You want to be very careful of doing this on any show surface you care about as with longer immersion times you'll get etching where the metal poked out from the liquid. This etching can be deep enough you won't be able to erase it with light sanding and in many cases it will permanently mar the steel or iron.

I'm intending to turn a couple of replacement handles.

The existing ones are in super nick, do you want new ones to suit your hands better?

 

[ED65]

...later read that you should neutralise them with bicarbonate of soda.

I'm of the opinion that it's a good idea to neutralise afterwards rather than just rinse and then oil/wax, but the way I do it is by washing down the steel with hand soap afterwards.

Any bog-standard soap will be quite alkaline so in addition to helping to clean away the dark residue the soap will at least partially neutralise any remaining traces of acid, and in my tests this does reduce the tendency to flash rusting which shows it has the desired effect. Usually. Some steels seem far more prone to it than others for no clear reason :?

Incidentally for anyone who is new to using vinegar I can highly recommend adding some salt, it greatly improves how well it works.

I found the best way of removing rust is with a battery charger and washing soda. Google "Rust removal with electrolysis "

Electrolysis is a great method, one of the best, but it's hard to do properly with wood in place.

 

[ColeyS1]

Thanks ED65 for your info on neutralising with just soapy water. One more question if I may. So would vinegar also attack perfect rust free steel ? I think I read that it'll only affect the rusty bits, but might be mistaken.

Coley

 

[woodpig]

Vinegar is up to 20% Acetic Acid and will attack steel.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

Good vinegar is usually 5% and sometimes 6% acid - it'll tell you on the label as you need 5% to pickle. It'll attack steel - but slowly on its own.

 

[pollys13]

OK thanks people.

 

[pollys13]

The existing ones are in super nick, do you want new ones to suit your hands better?
No, I'll just clean them up.

 

[Racers]

My tip would be get a pair of kevlar gloves, as you will be working close to the edge and are likely to cut your self as I have found out!

https://www.justworkgloves.co.uk/Cut-Re ... GwodsgYNfQ

Pete

 

[ED65]

Thanks ED65 for your info on neutralising with just soapy water. One more question if I may. So would vinegar also attack perfect rust free steel ? I think I read that it'll only affect the rusty bits, but might be mistaken.

Yes vinegar will attack good steel or iron right beside the rusty portions. It's usually not enough to be a problem though.

Minor etching creates a very fine texture that's all but invisible in a lot of cases, but you can get a sort of sandblasted finish if you leave something soaking long enough. Or when you use the vinegar or vinegar/salt solution hot to speed the de-rusting process along.

 

[bridger]

On the subject of salting the vinegar for rust removal-

Vinegar by itself is effectively dilute acetic acid, which can be halted easily by simple dilution. Wash with soap, rinse, dry and a coat of wax and you're done.

If you introduce salt (sodium chloride) you have created a hydrochloric acid generator. HCL is a much more aggressive acid than acetic at attacking iron, and the reaction is harder to stop. Wash and rinsing alone won't do it. The etching process will continue and eat pits in the steel. With HCL it is necessary to neutralize well with a mild alkali like baking soda, which also needs to be carefully cleaned off before proceeding.

Vinegar works fine, and is safe. If I'm derusting something with a lot of rust, I'll soak is a bit, pull it out and scrub it a bit with a stiff brush, then put it back in for another soak.

 

[ED65]

HCL is a much more aggressive acid than acetic at attacking iron, and the reaction is harder to stop. Wash and rinsing alone won't do it.

Well it depends on what you wash with.

I'm a big proponent of not just rinsing (even if just using vinegar or citric acid) because you're sure to leave the surface of the steel slightly acidic. I no longer soak in a mild alkali to do the neutralising as I found even with a prolonged soak it left the steel too prone to flash rusting. Instead as the last step in cleaning I scrub the steel well with an old toothbrush and hand soap which has given me much better results.

 

[bridger]

HCL is a much more aggressive acid than acetic at attacking iron, and the reaction is harder to stop. Wash and rinsing alone won't do it.

Well it depends on what you wash with.

I'm a big proponent of not just rinsing (even if just using vinegar or citric acid) because you're sure to leave the surface of the steel slightly acidic. I no longer soak in a mild alkali to do the neutralising as I found even with a prolonged soak it left the steel too prone to flash rusting. Instead as the last step in cleaning I scrub the steel well with an old toothbrush and hand soap which has given me much better results.

Soap is another whole subject. Made right, hand soap is pretty close to neutral ph, but likely to be slightly alkaline. Many comercial products sold as soap (in the US, anyway) contain no soap (product of an alkali and a lipid).

I live in the arizona desert. The environment here is dry and the soil tends toward alkaline anyway, so I have few problems with flash rust after derusting with vinegar. A scrub down with a stiff fiber brush or green scotchbrite, rinse and dry, followed by paste wax generally puts them in working trim.

 

[ED65]

Soap is another whole subject. Made right, hand soap is pretty close to neutral ph, but likely to be slightly alkaline.

Yeah that's the way it's supposed to be but the everyday reality is much different it seems, with commercial stuff it is apparently rare to find one that's even that close to neutral. I have a mate with some pH testing strips who has tested every bar of soap he could lay his hands on over a couple of years, from posh brand-name stuff (including bars marketed as "mild") to the little bars you get in a cheap motel, and the suds on every single one were basic. And by basic I mean 9 or above, I think one or two were edging past 11 :shock:

I live in the arizona desert. The environment here is dry and the soil tends toward alkaline anyway, so I have few problems with flash rust after derusting with vinegar.

Lucky SOB. Rarely drops below 80 here