recovering goods not paid for

[murdoch]

Hi all,

I'm unsure where I stand on this so wondered if anybody had any ideas.

I few years ago I got talking to a local posh houseware shop owner who liked the kitchen furniture we made. I didn't have much work at the time and offered to build a kitchen dresser that she could display here goods on, whilst also having a little sign which said who the dresser was made by and any orders would earn her a commission. A good idea I thought and it looked great in her shop but she never bothered to promote me and just kept it for display. This didn't bother me too much as I have since had plenty of business and we're doing ok.

Fast forward a couple of years to 2013 and I popped into the shop to ask for the dresser back, the owner had sold the shop and the new owner did admit that she had let him know it was not part of the stock and that it belonged to me and he must give it back when I came for it. He seemed nice but fobbed me off saying how good looking it was and he would like to buy and even have more made. Trouble is he never contacted me again and whenever i called him he started talking about buying it again and coming to see the workshop.

Well yesterday I was passing so went into the shop to see him. I asked if I could have it within 2 weeks as I would like to give it to a friend. The owner started getting a bit irate calling me unreasonable and that he needs at least 6-8 weeks as he has nothing to replace it with and that I cant even prove that its mine so why should I have it as he has now decided it was part of the stock when he bought the shop! He said under no circumstances could I take it until he said so and if I didn't like it to call my lawyer!!!

I would really like it back! Its not the money I just cant stand dishonesty in business and would rather anyone had it than him. Can i just go with some mates and take it by force? or should i wait for him to arrange a replacement which could never happen.

Any advice would be appreciated. sorry to bore you if you read all this.

 

[NickWelford]

Official sounding letter, or initiate small claims court proceedings.

 

[Indie Shed]

Can you get in touch with the previous shop owner to make a statement that the dresser isn't part of the shop fittings and to recap on the original terms of the agreement in writing. It might just take the wind out of the sails of the new owner.

Did you by any chance put a makers mark on the dresser proving you are the maker?

 

[Mike.S]

Natural justice would allow you (+friends) to just enter the shop during opening hours and take the dresser, being careful not to damage any other goods. However, I'd be concerned about the shop owner's reaction. What if a shoving match ensued? What if you were accused of theft and the Police called?

My suggestion would be to first obtain proof of ownership/the arrangement, perhaps by contacting the original shop owner (get written statement). Then write to the new owner - state your claim and that you'll be collecting it on a certain date; if access refused then 'rent' for continued use of dresser will become payable (set a weekly sum) until it's returned or purchased for £x.

You then have a sound basis (imho) for submitting a small claims court action claiming an injunction (deliver the dresser) and rent between date specified and actual delivery date, plus costs (court fee, interest on everything).

Hopefully, the letter will be sufficient(better from a solicitor but that will cost and unlikely to be recoverable). Whichever way you go I think the proof of ownership is the key - the new shop owner sounds even less scrupulous than the previous one (who should have contacted you when the shop was being sold).

 

[murdoch]

Can you get in touch with the previous shop owner to make a statement that the dresser isn't part of the shop fittings and to recap on the original terms of the agreement in writing. It might just take the wind out of the sails of the new owner.

Did you by any chance put a makers mark on the dresser proving you are the maker?

Funnily enough I still have the number of the previous owner who would make a statement, I also have pictures of the dresser in the workshop but no makers mark. It's also listed as part of my stock in the accounts( I bet it's not listed in his accounts!)

Official sounding letter, or initiate small claims court proceedings.

Really don't want the hassle, really just wondered if it was legal to remove it myself?

 

[murdoch]

Natural justice would allow you (+friends) to just enter the shop during opening hours and take the dresser, being careful not to damage any other goods. However, I'd be concerned about the shop owner's reaction. What if a shoving match ensued? What if you were accused of theft and the Police called?

My suggestion would be to first obtain proof of ownership/the arrangement, perhaps by contacting the original shop owner (get written statement). Then write to the new owner - state your claim and that you'll be collecting it on a certain date; if access refused then 'rent' for continued use of dresser will become payable (set a weekly sum) until it's returned or purchased for £x.

You then have a sound basis (imho) for submitting a small claims court action claiming an injunction (deliver the dresser) and rent between date specified and actual delivery date, plus costs (court fee, interest on everything).

Hopefully, the letter will be sufficient(better from a solicitor but that will cost and unlikely to be recoverable). Whichever way you go I think the proof of ownership is the key - the new shop owner sounds even less scrupulous than the previous one (who should have contacted you when the shop was being sold).

Thanks for this advice, I'll call the previous owner for a statement, show it to him and give him a date I will collect.

 

[doctor Bob]

"What does your contract with the previous owner say" is what a solicitor will ask you.

Honestly I would say unless you have it in writing that it's yours I can't see anyway you will get it back. I'd go for trying to sell it to him.

 

[MIGNAL]

Get proof of ownership.
His reaction was very unreasonable, not much sign of diplomacy at all. These types seldom change their ways, unless they are forced to.
I'd be tempted to go the legal route or at least threaten to do so.
In a similar situation I once had to employ a solicitor to issue a threatening letter. My goods were returned within 3 hours of him receiving that letter + he paid the costs. I'd waited over one year for the return of my goods, despite endless requests. Going to the solicitor was a lot less hassle than those endless requests and the anger I felt at the injustice.

 

[katellwood]

Even if the police are called you cannot be arrested

Theft, points to prove:

Dishonestly appropriates property belonging to another with the intention of permanently depriving the other of it.

Its your property so it does not belong to another and therefore cannot be dishonest, appropriates equals assumes the rights of the owner, its already yours. so no issue

Your only problem could be civil trespass should you enter with others. you could be forcibly removed by the current occupier from the property

If you can get a written statement from the previous occupier that the item did not form part of the shop and they are refusing to return it then the points to prove of theft could be proved against the new occupier

i.e. "appropriation" of the item (they are assuming the rights as the owner), "dishonesty" they have previously admitted that the item is yours and backed up by the statement from the previous occupier, "belonging to another" Its yours, "intention to permanently deprive" they've said you can't have it back

Pop into your local police station or speak with your local officer. a visit from a uniform may well solve the problem

 

[Baldhead]

Natural justice would allow you (+friends) to just enter the shop during opening hours and take the dresser, being careful not to damage any other goods. However, I'd be concerned about the shop owner's reaction. What if a shoving match ensued? What if you were accused of theft and the Police called?

My suggestion would be to first obtain proof of ownership/the arrangement, perhaps by contacting the original shop owner (get written statement). Then write to the new owner - state your claim and that you'll be collecting it on a certain date; if access refused then 'rent' for continued use of dresser will become payable (set a weekly sum) until it's returned or purchased for £x.

You then have a sound basis (imho) for submitting a small claims court action claiming an injunction (deliver the dresser) and rent between date specified and actual delivery date, plus costs (court fee, interest on everything).

Hopefully, the letter will be sufficient(better from a solicitor but that will cost and unlikely to be recoverable). Whichever way you go I think the proof of ownership is the key - the new shop owner sounds even less scrupulous than the previous one (who should have contacted you when the shop was being sold).

Thanks for this advice, I'll call the previous owner for a statement, show it to him and give him a date I will collect.

If the new shop owner says your not having it back you cannot just turn up on the date you've given and take it back, in that case you must take the owner to court, I have taken one individual and one company to court and won on both occasions, advice is available online from CAB and I also recommend joining this forum

http://swarblaw.co.uk/viewforum.php?f=14

I have had a lot of free advice from legal professionals, from the link above, it's not as hard as you think.
In your shoes I would not hesitate to take the new shop owner to court, if you can get a signed statement from the previous owner it will strengthen your case, but you must make every attempt to solve this amicably, a letter saying the dresser belongs to you and the original shop owner has given you a statement saying they were made aware of this when the bought the shop etc etc, then give them a date when you will collect the dresser, I would give them two weeks from the postal date of the letter, but remind them that it is a valuable piece of furniture just incase they stick it outside to purposely damage it out of spite.

If you need any further help PM me.

Baldhead

Edit - If you do decide to send a letter to rightfully claim what is yours you should put at the top of the letter 'LETTER BEFORE CLAIM' (I would use capitals and bold print) state exactly what you want ie the return of your property and also give a date when you will collect it, at the end of the letter say,

'To avoid court action I am agreeable to mediation and would consider any other system of Alternative Dispute Resolution.
If I do not recieve a satisfactory response from you within ?? days from the date of this letter I intend to issue proceedings against you in the County Court without notice. This may increase your liability for costs.
In closing I refer you to the Practice Direction on Pre-Action Conduct under the Civil Procedure Rules, and in particular to paragraph 4 which sets out sanctions the court may impose if you fail to comply with the Practice Direction.

I look forward to your acknowledgement.

Your faithfully

Joe Bloggs

The above is the exact wording you have to use before starting court procedures, that in its self will hopefully show the lying shop owner you mean business. May I also add you cannot normally recover any costs for solicitors.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

Try CAB _ I doubt the police will be even remotely interested.

 

[Ali]

"What does your contract with the previous owner say" is what a solicitor will ask you.

Honestly I would say unless you have it in writing that it's yours I can't see anyway you will get it back. I'd go for trying to sell it to him.

I agree with the good doctor. What do you have in writing that it was lent to the previous owner? If you have nothing then you have no chance of proving ownership of the item.

Do not try to enter with force or remove the item, you will get in trouble.

I have sold retail businesses in the past and it depends on the contract the new owner signed with the previous owner - what was included in the fixtures and fittings inventory in the sale. You will not have access to this document (assuming there is one - you never know how the business was sold). If the dresser was included in the fixtures and fittings then your issue is with the previous owner and any action should be sent to them. The previous owner does sound dishonest but then in any action you would have to prove again what contract you had with them for the loan of the dresser.

If the dresser was not in the fixtures and fittings inventory, then the new owner needs to prove that they purchased the dresser and it belongs to them.

Principles are expensive but I appreciate your pain. Being screwed over is a bitter experience - you have to ask yourself is it worth proceeding.

My personal belief is that you take this on the chin and leave it - just don't be so kind to people who are dishonest. When it comes to money everyone shows their true colours.

If you want to take this up - strong worded letter to the new owner to prove ownership of the item. Do everything written and recorded. If he cannot provide proof then small claims court (but that is dependent on the value of the dresser - how much is it worth?). You have to be prepared to actually go to court if he is stubborn and defends it, so be prepared if you go down this path. He will have to produce evidence of the purchase contract for the business and the F&F (including the dresser). If he can provide this, you will lose. Your beef will be with the previous owner - you will then have to have evidence that the dresser was loaned to that owner and take up the same process with him.

Sorry for all the bother, I do understand your pain but ask yourself is it worth it? All the best mate.

 

[Harbo]

Having watched one of those Bailiff programmes on TV, I think to remove it you would probably have to employ them under a Court Order?
I'm pretty sure you would not be allowed to enter and seize your items without some form of official order?

Rod

 

[deema]

Move on, write off the asset from your books, and learn the lesson of not having a written contract if it was worth too much. It was a display item, so should have been written off immediately, the value will be negligible now, and not enough to loose any sleep over or the price of a few stamps.

 

[Scottdimelow]

Intimidation is a great tool, have any butch friends?

 

[murdoch]

Thanks so much to all that have offered advice, some have clearly spent a lot of time replying and I really appreciate it. It's not an issue that I'm too bothered and certainly won't loose sleep over it but mainly wanted to know if it was legal to just turn up with some mates and take it back. It seems not from the comments so I'll let him know what a thieving scumbag he is and let it go. Not a money issue but would have liked to help some friends out with free furniture.

 

[Scottdimelow]

I definitely wouldn't let him keep it, just out of principal. Try sending a fake solicitors letter, that should make him know you're serious. Give him the option to buy or return it, otherwise the boys will be a knockin'!

I can't stand people like that!

 

[murdoch]

So I called the original owner of the shop, she said she'd be happy to write a short statement. I then called the new owner who buckled surprisingly quickly when I talked about him providing proof of purchase or I'd take serious action (although I wouldn't).

Have now arranged to collect in 2 weeks time.

Thanks for your help everyone

 

[marcros]

. Try sending a fake solicitors letter, that should make him know you're serious.

Which is a criminal offence and so not the best of actions.

 

[Indie Shed]

Great result. Seeing as the guy is on the market for a new cabinet maybe you could take him a copy of your catalogue?