Records Laminated - How Many?

[D_W]

I've been on a bit of a binge lately. After finding that you guys don't seem to care so much for the old records (based on the prices on ebay), I've got two 4s, a 4 SS, and a 4 1/2, and a norris infill shoulder (a type of plane I don't even use)..not enough time in the shop lately, I guess.

The 4 1/2 has a boatload of little narrow pitting, and too much to worry about in the first 1/4th inch of the iron, so I ground it off today. I was shocked at how fast it ground off square, and then noticed that it's laminated, which is strange to me given the boast of it being a high tungsten steel.

The records I've gotten thus far are the type with the old frog design (I have no preference in planes, my best adjusting and working stanley is of the new frog type, a treat to use day to day), presume that might have something to do with it? Any clue what percentage of the records were laminated? I'll have to look closer at the other two tomorrow (didn't get the SS yet).

 

[Phil Pascoe]

Typical. The Americans get a taste for something and the price will go up. I (and probably many others) prefer Records to any but the best Stanleys. Same goes for Marples, probably the weight - they do tend to be heavier. I think my older Records are all laminated. I suspect ebay prices are influenced to a large extent by collector's values - Stanleys will always fetch more than the equivalent Records, possibly because the Record is always seen as a copy.

 

[D_W]

Fortunately, the americans over here don't seem to have a taste for norris shoulder planes right now. A near perfect vintage norris 18 costs about the same as a new Lie Nielsen shoulder plane, but the difference in the style to an amateur maker like me is near priceless.

As far as records go, they have always been more costly over here because they are not as common. Even the nearly new ones, which I don't favor much, sell for more than vintage stanley planes here.

I favor the handles on a good vintage stanley a little more than the thinner handles on the record planes, but I'm pretty indifferent about the rest of the plane. I haven't received the marples yet.

No worries on the price, I don't think much of a trend will be started - a twenty-five dollar record plane still ends up costing $50 total here once the global shipping charge is added, and a lot of americans are too skittish to even buy a used stanley.

 

[swagman]

DW; not laminated blades, but I purchased this (post 1950 manufacture) Record 043 back in April 2010, when the postal costs from the U.K were a lot more reasonable. $7.00 uk international postage from uk to aust. Total cost $43.00 uk.

Stewie;

 

[Racers]

My square shouldered laminated blades are marked "best crucible cast tungsten steel" and they are very nice blades.
They are laminated to save the expensive crucible cast steel for where it's needed.

Pete

 

[Sheffield Tony]

I discovered, to my surprise, that even the not so sought after Chapman Acorn planes have laminated irons. So it must have been cheaper.

 

[bugbear]

I was shocked at how fast it ground off square, and then noticed that it's laminated, which is strange to me given the boast of it being a high tungsten steel.

I don't remember a claim of "high tungsten" (as in some kind of HSS), I think they just added a bit of tungsten and vanadium to alter the crystal structure during heat treatment of what is basically a normal high carbon steel.

BugBear

 

[Phil Pascoe]

No, it doesn't say "high" just "best crucible cast tungsten steel".

 

[D_W]

I was shocked at how fast it ground off square, and then noticed that it's laminated, which is strange to me given the boast of it being a high tungsten steel.

I don't remember a claim of "high tungsten" (as in some kind of HSS), I think they just added a bit of tungsten and vanadium to alter the crystal structure during heat treatment of what is basically a normal high carbon steel.

BugBear

I could not remember the slogan on the blade correctly, but I figured that they were similar to any other carbon steel.

I make the comment about tungsten not because I expect it to be like the original HSS (definitely not), but because I have had razors that were made in the early 1900s when there was a small craze to advertise tungsten in steel, and they were quite tough. Not close to HSS, but harder to hone than the razors I've had that were very plain steel.

 

[Argus]

DW; not laminated blades, but I purchased this (post 1950 manufacture) Record 043 back in April 2010, when the postal costs from the U.K were a lot more reasonable. $7.00 uk international postage from uk to aust. Total cost $43.00 uk.

Stewie;

Nothing to do with the original question, but I couldn't fail to notice the original price in pencil on the label of Swagman's 043....... thirty-four bob, or £1/-14.
I have an identical plane with the same price which, from that, I would estimate the date at the late 1950s or early 1960s. That was a tidy sum of money in those days to pay for a tool.
Certainly sold before about 1964 when Retail Price Maintenance - where the manufacture set the sale price - was outlawed.

 

[AndyT]

I keep coming back to a useful supplement in the Woodworker in 1960 listing most of the readily available planes, with prices. The Record 043 was 32 shillings then, so presumably went up by 2s soon after, giving a likely date for Swagman's and Argus's planes.
Unfortunately it doesn't list replacement irons.

For quite a bit of detail/sales pitch on the merits of Tungsten Steel, there are three pages in Planecraft about how the introduction of tungsten makes steel harder with more uniform grain and better edge retention. It emphasises how modern scientific methods have improved the product, which (in 1959) was described as still being made by the costly crucible process.

No mention of whether the cutters were laminated onto iron or made of superior steel throughout.

 

[Argus]

What looks like the OP's blade marking is described as in production dating from mid'30s to mid 50s on David Lynch's excellent historical site on Record tools:

http://www.recordhandplanes.com/dating.html

.... about half way down the page, first listing of blades after the section on lever caps.

 

[Mr_P]

I've been on a bit of a binge lately. After finding that you guys don't seem to care so much for the old records (based on the prices on ebay), I've got two 4s, a 4 SS, and a 4 1/2, and a norris infill shoulder (a type of plane I don't even use)..not enough time in the shop lately, I guess..

Think its a more a case of market forces / supply and demand that makes them cheap. How many "normal" folk want more than one ? (whistels innocently) not exactly stamp collecting is it and even idiots like me eventually realise less is more.

I use my Record 03 all the time and wouldn't part with it, even if I did find an I.Sorby 3.

 

[D_W]

I've been on a bit of a binge lately. After finding that you guys don't seem to care so much for the old records (based on the prices on ebay), I've got two 4s, a 4 SS, and a 4 1/2, and a norris infill shoulder (a type of plane I don't even use)..not enough time in the shop lately, I guess..

Think its a more a case of market forces / supply and demand that makes them cheap. How many "normal" folk want more than one ? (whistels innocently) not exactly stamp collecting is it and even idiots like me eventually realise less is more.

I use my Record 03 all the time and wouldn't part with it, even if I did find an I.Sorby 3.

Yes, novelty to some extent. I use pretty much a single stanley plane, a modern type 20 one at that - despite having made a gaggle of smoothers. I suspect I will regularly use one of these records smoothers for a while, but not rotate a whole bunch of them around as I like to know what I'm using.

There are probably a dozen a week on ebay, with half or so being a good candidate for purchase. I could make a video and direct everyone to the GSP on ebay to loot the records, but I won't do that

 

[D_W]

I discovered, to my surprise, that even the not so sought after Chapman Acorn planes have laminated irons. So it must have been cheaper.

I just checked the three that I got, all of them say "tungsten cast" on them, one of them has rounded shoulders, but all three are laminated. The two that I've used so far are similar in hardness to a vintage stanley (no surprise), and I prefer them to any modern boutique iron that I've tried. That's already clear.

I've tried in the past to replace any past-gone millers falls or stanley irons with laminated vintage irons, but they are hard to find reasonable here in the states. I know what to do now!

 

[AndyT]

I think it's a good time for overseas buyers on eBay. I've noticed several really keenly priced tools (including some good looking Record planes) getting no bids at all recently. As the pound dives to new low values on the foreign exchange, there will be even better bargains to be had.

 

[Mr_P]

AndyT is spot on, of the 5 planes I've recently sold two went to Italy and one to America via the GSP.

Stanley also benefits from brand recognition. I knew of Stanley and Stanley planes long before I started taking woodworking seriously, Record probably not.

Maybe thats just me ? (born in the mid 70's)

 

[bugbear]

I make the comment about tungsten not because I expect it to be like the original HSS (definitely not), but because I have had razors that were made in the early 1900s when there was a small craze to advertise tungsten in steel, and they were quite tough. Not close to HSS, but harder to hone than the razors I've had that were very plain steel.

I think razor are tempered differently to woodworking tools. Could be a factor.

BugBear

 

[Phil Pascoe]

Yes, you're probably not likely to chip the edge of a razor ... unless you're Desperate Dan.

 

[D_W]

I make the comment about tungsten not because I expect it to be like the original HSS (definitely not), but because I have had razors that were made in the early 1900s when there was a small craze to advertise tungsten in steel, and they were quite tough. Not close to HSS, but harder to hone than the razors I've had that were very plain steel.

I think razor are tempered differently to woodworking tools. Could be a factor.

BugBear

It can be, but some razors are harder tempered than others. There is some overlap, but my experience with old razors (as in century old) that advertise that they're tungsten steel is that they are tempered harder and much harder to get into good shaving shape than a razor that is advertised as being silver steel or "best crucible steel".

I don't think razors are tempered as hard as their reputation has them, their included angle is only about 16-18 degrees, and if they are too hard, they tend to chip when being honed, which is a toxic problem solved only by increasing their angle.

I'd imagine most are probably 60-62 hardness (I'd guess 57/58 for the record irons based on how they behave on oilstones), but it's hard to be sure because we hone razors seldom (if taking care of them properly) and after the initial set of the edge on one, never do hone the actual bevel off again. Modern internet practice is different than this, but old practice is more sparing of metal and more reliant on a good linen and leather.

Really hard tempered razors have other problems, too, like not responding much to a leather strop. They're a lot like tools - you can make them harder to meet a spec so that you can sell them to beginners, but people actually using them will usually appreciate things being done the way professionals and their manufacturers decided they should be.