Plane mouth fettling

[andyacg]

I recently bought an old record no 4 of cheat bay with a view to doing a full resto and getting familiar with it. The only info I can't find is about the mouth. As it is the front and back edges have a slight bow. I can file these back true but will that leave the mouth too wide ?

 

[longinthetooth]

No, the mouth's adjustable by loosening & moving the frog. Google 'plane frog' ...

 

[G S Haydon]

Hello Andy,

I'm nearly at the end of my #4 tune up http://gshaydon.co.uk/blog/4-plane/. I have put a link in my post to an article David Charlesworth put together. It can be found here http://www.rexmill.com/ , follow the link, go to the right hand menu and select "Tune Up", scroll down to the bottom and there is the article. It's been interesting to prepare a #4 to a high level. My day job #4 has not been touched in any way and is fine for job site work and general joinery
I don't think the mouth being bowed would cause any problem that I can think of. The rear of the mouth does not need to support the blade and the front needs to be tight to prevent/reduce tear out. As long as the sole is flat within reason that should be fine. As you will see in the article it is advised to only add a back bevel to the mouth, not to make it any larger. I found my file was too big to get in there so this and investing in a new blade were steps I had to omit. The blade was omitted on grounds of cost and not having the type of work that would challenge it yet. When the blade wears out I will then probably upgrade.
Hope that helps.

 

[andyacg]

Yeah the frog moves ok longinthetooth. Your record looks good g s. I'm going to start flattening my sole this weekend

 

[Peter Sefton]

As was posted earlier most files wont fit inside the mouth. If we need to clean and improve the mouth on an old plane or on occasions a new Quangsheng (the only fettling we do on the body of the QS I must add), we use a Eze-Lap Diamond Lap File - great for these fine filing jobs.

 

[woodbrains]

Hello,

I invoked the wrath of the trolls, when I posted that the frogs are adjustable and the sole does not support the blade. What gives?

Mike.

 

[G S Haydon]

Mike,

For what it's worth during my "Tune Up" I found the frog moved freely and was easy to adjust. I also found no chatter, even with a standard blade with the frog in an advanced position. That said, from the day I started work as a joiner I never needed to adjust the mouth of my day job plane.
I think you could use the sole for a bit extra support if you wanted to use a smoother as an improvised scrub plane perhaps?

 

[G S Haydon]

BTW Peter, thanks for the tip on the file

 

[andyacg]

hows your frog looking G S ? mine seems to have a very strange pattern on the cutter seating.

 

[G S Haydon]

Andy,

My frog face was a bit of a mess and easily the worst aspect of the plane. I had anticipated a quick tidy up but it was far from flat http://gshaydon.co.uk/blog/4-plane-the-frog/ . Even tidying up where the frog met the sole was quick by comparison. I hope the pictures show what was going on. Does that tally with what you have?

 

[Jacob]

Yeah the frog moves ok longinthetooth. Your record looks good g s. I'm going to start flattening my sole this weekend

Shouldn't take more than 5 minutes or you are doing it wrong. Does it need flattening anyway? Most likely not, in my experience.

I can file these back true but will that leave the mouth too wide ?

If you don't know then don't do it - these things can't be undone. It's almost certainly unnecessary anyway. Concentrate on getting it working first, then worry about improvements, after a few years of use.

 

[G S Haydon]

"Shouldn't take more than 5 minutes or you are doing it wrong. Does it need flattening anyway? Most likely not, in my experience."

Andy

Time taken will depend on how good/bad the sole is and to what level you want to take it to. As Jacob says it should not take too long but I' don't think I was able to set up my abrasives and flatten the sole in quite 5 mins. BTW, what type of woodworking floats your boat?

 

[David C]

6 inch safe edge files will usually fit through throat.

A few tenths of a mm removed to tidy and straighten front edge will not harm anything. I like to polish this surface a bit. No idea if this helps or not !

PS I was quite pleased with that Fine WW article, though not always agreeing with their editing.

David

 

[Jacob]

.... I' don't think I was able to set up my abrasives and flatten the sole in quite 5 mins. ....

It's quick if you do it on 60 grit to flatten then progress straight to say 400 to reduce friction. Doesn't remove the scratches but it does the job.

 

[bugbear]

As was posted earlier most files wont fit inside the mouth. If we need to clean and improve the mouth on an old plane or on occasions a new Quangsheng (the only fettling we do on the body of the QS I must add), we use a Eze-Lap Diamond Lap File - great for these fine filing jobs.

I find a thin strip of SiC (graded to suit) supported on a thin file (e.g. warding file) or even a 6" steel ruler helpful for this kind of access.

I also have a box of old pieces of hand saw (off cuts and "stock" used for scratch stock blades, scrapers etc) which come in handy.

Watch out for the dreaded rounding! Engineer apprentices take a while to learn this.

BugBear

 

[Corneel]

Like Jacob sais, I would hold back with the file until you tried how the plane works as it is.

If you really want to file something I would file the back of the mouth so it gives full support to the blade when the frog is retracted. You can pull back the frog so its surface is even with the short 45 degree bevel machined in the sole at this point. Feel with your fingers if this is flush, that is precise enough. If yours really is bowed, then you might only have two points of contact. Probably good enough but when you are good with a file you can correct it. This bit of extra support is right where you want it, behind the edge so it is helpfull in a plane with a thin blade like your Record when planing hard woods.

Forget about a tight mouth. In a Bailey-type plane you control tearout with the chipbreaker. Even Stanley sais so (from the 1950 users guide, Stanley Australia).

 

[Phil Pascoe]

That's from 1950 - they didn't make planes with mouths the size of Cherie Blair's then.

 

[Corneel]

I had to look up Cherie Blair. She's got some mouth for sure!

But I don't see much difference in Stanley mouths, late or early.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

I measured my old No.6 against a near new No.4 - the mouth of the No.4 was a third wider than the No.6.
(both Stanley)

 

[Corneel]

Ok, didn't know that.

But it doesn't matter. A tight mouth only helps against tearout when it is supertight, like barely-passing-the-shaving-tight. And when you use the chipbreaker to control tearout you don't need such a tight mouth.